1 00:00:26,480 --> 00:00:47,510 ignition sequence start six 2 00:00:51,910 --> 00:00:49,830 good afternoon i'm stephen dick the nasa 3 00:00:54,790 --> 00:00:51,920 chief historian and i want to welcome 4 00:00:55,830 --> 00:00:54,800 our nasa tv audience as well as everyone 5 00:00:57,350 --> 00:00:55,840 here at 6 00:00:59,349 --> 00:00:57,360 nasa headquarters 7 00:01:02,150 --> 00:00:59,359 this is an exciting time as we look both 8 00:01:04,070 --> 00:01:02,160 backward and at history and we 9 00:01:07,190 --> 00:01:04,080 contemplate the future we're here today 10 00:01:09,590 --> 00:01:07,200 to celebrate the apollo 40th anniversary 11 00:01:13,030 --> 00:01:09,600 and we've convened a distinguished panel 12 00:01:15,270 --> 00:01:13,040 to discuss apollo's history and legacy 13 00:01:16,789 --> 00:01:15,280 today we have with us to my left here 14 00:01:18,950 --> 00:01:16,799 john logsdon 15 00:01:21,830 --> 00:01:18,960 the lindbergh chair in aerospace history 16 00:01:24,710 --> 00:01:21,840 at the national air and space museum 17 00:01:27,429 --> 00:01:24,720 roger lonius the senior curator in space 18 00:01:28,870 --> 00:01:27,439 history at the air and space museum 19 00:01:30,310 --> 00:01:28,880 michael neufeld 20 00:01:32,390 --> 00:01:30,320 the chair of the division of space 21 00:01:34,069 --> 00:01:32,400 history at the air and space museum 22 00:01:36,710 --> 00:01:34,079 and the author of the most recent 23 00:01:39,429 --> 00:01:36,720 biography of werner von braun dreamer of 24 00:01:42,310 --> 00:01:39,439 space engineer of war 25 00:01:44,149 --> 00:01:42,320 next to michael we have chris christina 26 00:01:45,910 --> 00:01:44,159 guidi the deputy director of 27 00:01:48,069 --> 00:01:45,920 constellation systems 28 00:01:50,710 --> 00:01:48,079 uh in the exploration systems mission 29 00:01:52,710 --> 00:01:50,720 directorate here at nasa headquarters 30 00:01:54,950 --> 00:01:52,720 and on the far end we have craig nelson 31 00:01:58,069 --> 00:01:54,960 who's the author of the very recently 32 00:02:00,149 --> 00:01:58,079 published book rocketmen the epic story 33 00:02:01,670 --> 00:02:00,159 of the first men on the moon 34 00:02:03,670 --> 00:02:01,680 before we proceed let me say that we're 35 00:02:06,550 --> 00:02:03,680 going to hold all questions for the 36 00:02:08,389 --> 00:02:06,560 press until the the end of this hour 37 00:02:10,630 --> 00:02:08,399 and before we go to the panel 38 00:02:13,350 --> 00:02:10,640 it's my pleasure to introduce 39 00:02:15,750 --> 00:02:13,360 the acting nasa administrator chris 40 00:02:24,949 --> 00:02:15,760 scalise who will say a few words on this 41 00:02:30,309 --> 00:02:27,430 thanks steve uh good afternoon everybody 42 00:02:32,390 --> 00:02:30,319 uh it really is a historic uh time here 43 00:02:33,990 --> 00:02:32,400 the 40th anniversary of the launch of 44 00:02:36,070 --> 00:02:34,000 apollo 11. 45 00:02:36,949 --> 00:02:36,080 just yesterday we launched uh space 46 00:02:39,030 --> 00:02:36,959 shuttle 47 00:02:40,309 --> 00:02:39,040 mission sts-127 48 00:02:42,790 --> 00:02:40,319 from uh 49 00:02:44,470 --> 00:02:42,800 launch complex 39a a cape 50 00:02:45,830 --> 00:02:44,480 at kennedy space center 51 00:02:48,949 --> 00:02:45,840 the same pad 52 00:02:51,430 --> 00:02:48,959 that launched apollo 11 40 years ago 53 00:02:52,869 --> 00:02:51,440 to give sort of a chronology of what 54 00:02:55,190 --> 00:02:52,879 that was 55 00:02:56,630 --> 00:02:55,200 if we were living 40 years ago 56 00:02:58,630 --> 00:02:56,640 many of us were though looking in the 57 00:03:00,710 --> 00:02:58,640 audience many of us weren't 58 00:03:02,710 --> 00:03:00,720 uh i was i was glued to a black and 59 00:03:05,110 --> 00:03:02,720 white television watching this this 60 00:03:08,070 --> 00:03:05,120 whole thing transpire 61 00:03:09,190 --> 00:03:08,080 at 9 32 a.m this morning apollo 11 would 62 00:03:10,470 --> 00:03:09,200 have 63 00:03:13,589 --> 00:03:10,480 lifted off 64 00:03:15,270 --> 00:03:13,599 at 12 22 p.m the translunar injection 65 00:03:16,869 --> 00:03:15,280 would have occurred after several orbits 66 00:03:19,190 --> 00:03:16,879 of the earth 67 00:03:21,670 --> 00:03:19,200 at 12 56 68 00:03:23,190 --> 00:03:21,680 40 years and a few minutes ago 69 00:03:24,550 --> 00:03:23,200 the command and service modules would 70 00:03:25,750 --> 00:03:24,560 have docked with a lunar module and 71 00:03:27,910 --> 00:03:25,760 pulled it out 72 00:03:29,270 --> 00:03:27,920 and headed on the way to the moon for a 73 00:03:31,670 --> 00:03:29,280 three-day journey 74 00:03:33,910 --> 00:03:31,680 and on july 20th at 75 00:03:36,070 --> 00:03:33,920 4 17 76 00:03:37,910 --> 00:03:36,080 eastern daylight time the first humans 77 00:03:40,070 --> 00:03:37,920 landed on the moon and later that 78 00:03:42,869 --> 00:03:40,080 evening neil armstrong was the first 79 00:03:44,630 --> 00:03:42,879 human to set foot on another planet the 80 00:03:46,390 --> 00:03:44,640 moon 81 00:03:48,710 --> 00:03:46,400 i think many of us 82 00:03:50,630 --> 00:03:48,720 that remember those days 83 00:03:52,149 --> 00:03:50,640 and i was you know not yet in high 84 00:03:53,190 --> 00:03:52,159 school at the time 85 00:03:54,949 --> 00:03:53,200 um 86 00:03:56,869 --> 00:03:54,959 it was an absolutely incredible 87 00:03:57,750 --> 00:03:56,879 incredible event and how that inspired 88 00:03:58,869 --> 00:03:57,760 us 89 00:04:01,509 --> 00:03:58,879 um 90 00:04:03,429 --> 00:04:01,519 only we can each speak individually 91 00:04:06,149 --> 00:04:03,439 about that 92 00:04:08,949 --> 00:04:06,159 but those events were set forth by a 93 00:04:11,190 --> 00:04:08,959 goal set by president kennedy in 1961 94 00:04:12,710 --> 00:04:11,200 when he said before this decade is out 95 00:04:14,630 --> 00:04:12,720 of landing a man on the moon and 96 00:04:17,349 --> 00:04:14,640 returning him safely to earth that was 97 00:04:18,870 --> 00:04:17,359 accomplished in 1969 it was one of the 98 00:04:19,670 --> 00:04:18,880 grand challenges 99 00:04:21,590 --> 00:04:19,680 that 100 00:04:24,070 --> 00:04:21,600 humanity seeks and what this nation 101 00:04:26,230 --> 00:04:24,080 seeks to accomplish it shows the best of 102 00:04:29,350 --> 00:04:26,240 what we can accomplish and it shows how 103 00:04:31,510 --> 00:04:29,360 we can accomplish it collectively as 104 00:04:33,430 --> 00:04:31,520 as a nation and as a world 105 00:04:34,710 --> 00:04:33,440 when you think about apollo 106 00:04:35,830 --> 00:04:34,720 think that it took twelve thousand 107 00:04:37,670 --> 00:04:35,840 companies 108 00:04:39,189 --> 00:04:37,680 four hundred thousand people 109 00:04:41,270 --> 00:04:39,199 and twenty five billion dollars to 110 00:04:43,110 --> 00:04:41,280 complete the program 111 00:04:45,030 --> 00:04:43,120 that was an incredible investment in the 112 00:04:47,189 --> 00:04:45,040 1960s 113 00:04:48,629 --> 00:04:47,199 yet 500 years from now 114 00:04:51,990 --> 00:04:48,639 when people look back on the 20th 115 00:04:53,430 --> 00:04:52,000 century i think the the challenge 116 00:04:54,710 --> 00:04:53,440 the accomplishment 117 00:04:55,830 --> 00:04:54,720 and the landing on the moon will be 118 00:04:59,110 --> 00:04:55,840 remembered as one of the great 119 00:05:00,550 --> 00:04:59,120 achievements of the 20th century perhaps 120 00:05:02,070 --> 00:05:00,560 one of the 121 00:05:03,670 --> 00:05:02,080 maybe the greatest achievement of the 122 00:05:05,270 --> 00:05:03,680 20th century 123 00:05:07,110 --> 00:05:05,280 but many questions still surround the 124 00:05:08,950 --> 00:05:07,120 apollo program 125 00:05:11,430 --> 00:05:08,960 was it really worth it 126 00:05:13,350 --> 00:05:11,440 what were the lessons that we learned 127 00:05:16,070 --> 00:05:13,360 what has been what's been the impact 128 00:05:19,110 --> 00:05:16,080 over the last 40 years 129 00:05:21,110 --> 00:05:19,120 what is its legacy in science technology 130 00:05:23,430 --> 00:05:21,120 the history of exploration and the way 131 00:05:25,590 --> 00:05:23,440 we see the earth 132 00:05:27,510 --> 00:05:25,600 i don't think it's a surprise that 133 00:05:28,629 --> 00:05:27,520 that if you can remember and you see the 134 00:05:30,710 --> 00:05:28,639 image 135 00:05:33,430 --> 00:05:30,720 in the back of the auditorium here 136 00:05:36,150 --> 00:05:33,440 of the earth that was taken by apollo 8 137 00:05:37,189 --> 00:05:36,160 in 1968 in december 138 00:05:39,029 --> 00:05:37,199 that 139 00:05:40,870 --> 00:05:39,039 shortly thereafter earth day came along 140 00:05:43,510 --> 00:05:40,880 and an awareness of the earth 141 00:05:45,430 --> 00:05:43,520 and how fragile it is and how much we 142 00:05:47,909 --> 00:05:45,440 need to protect it came 143 00:05:49,909 --> 00:05:47,919 probably from apollo 144 00:05:52,150 --> 00:05:49,919 so these questions are still relevant 145 00:05:54,070 --> 00:05:52,160 today as we seek to go on and do bigger 146 00:05:56,150 --> 00:05:54,080 and bolder things with our new 147 00:05:59,110 --> 00:05:56,160 challenges and the new 148 00:06:01,510 --> 00:05:59,120 the new program that we're pursuing 149 00:06:02,870 --> 00:06:01,520 we're driving onwards towards mars 150 00:06:05,029 --> 00:06:02,880 but we still need to ask some of the 151 00:06:07,430 --> 00:06:05,039 questions to look back to understand 152 00:06:09,749 --> 00:06:07,440 what happened today as steve mentioned 153 00:06:13,029 --> 00:06:09,759 we have a convenient distinguished panel 154 00:06:14,550 --> 00:06:13,039 to discuss apollo's history its legacy 155 00:06:16,390 --> 00:06:14,560 and what it means for the future now 156 00:06:17,189 --> 00:06:16,400 i'll turn it over to steve to take it 157 00:06:20,070 --> 00:06:17,199 over 158 00:06:22,870 --> 00:06:20,080 thank you 159 00:06:24,469 --> 00:06:22,880 deal to discuss today so i think we'll 160 00:06:26,550 --> 00:06:24,479 just get right to it 161 00:06:28,309 --> 00:06:26,560 i think it's a safe bet that uh the 162 00:06:30,309 --> 00:06:28,319 united states never would have gone to 163 00:06:32,469 --> 00:06:30,319 the moon if it hadn't been for the 164 00:06:34,390 --> 00:06:32,479 competition with the soviet union the 165 00:06:36,070 --> 00:06:34,400 geopolitical context was 166 00:06:37,830 --> 00:06:36,080 was very important 167 00:06:59,990 --> 00:06:37,840 so before we start let's take a quick 168 00:07:00,000 --> 00:07:06,710 all right 169 00:07:06,720 --> 00:07:29,029 g cabinet 170 00:07:31,990 --> 00:07:31,029 i believe that this nation should commit 171 00:07:33,909 --> 00:07:32,000 itself 172 00:07:35,909 --> 00:07:33,919 to achieving the goal 173 00:07:37,670 --> 00:07:35,919 before this decade is out 174 00:07:56,469 --> 00:07:37,680 of landing a man on the moon and 175 00:08:01,270 --> 00:07:58,790 we choose to go to the moon in this 176 00:08:03,670 --> 00:08:01,280 decade and do the other things not 177 00:08:06,550 --> 00:08:03,680 because they are easy but because they 178 00:08:12,790 --> 00:08:08,869 john logsdon we've been uh 179 00:08:14,869 --> 00:08:12,800 uh yeah i know you've been researching a 180 00:08:16,869 --> 00:08:14,879 new book on president kennedy's role in 181 00:08:18,710 --> 00:08:16,879 the space race have you found anything 182 00:08:21,350 --> 00:08:18,720 new or revealing during your research 183 00:08:22,790 --> 00:08:21,360 well a number of things steve 184 00:08:26,150 --> 00:08:22,800 one was 185 00:08:27,350 --> 00:08:26,160 how directly involved john f kennedy was 186 00:08:29,189 --> 00:08:27,360 in in 187 00:08:31,189 --> 00:08:29,199 not only the decision to go to the moon 188 00:08:33,909 --> 00:08:31,199 but in carrying out that decision he 189 00:08:38,829 --> 00:08:33,919 paid careful attention to the program as 190 00:08:42,149 --> 00:08:38,839 it evolved after may 25th of 1961. 191 00:08:45,269 --> 00:08:42,159 um he became increasingly concerned 192 00:08:46,949 --> 00:08:45,279 about the costs and he kept emphasizing 193 00:08:47,829 --> 00:08:46,959 that even in the speech that was just 194 00:08:51,430 --> 00:08:47,839 shown 195 00:08:53,590 --> 00:08:51,440 to congress in may of 1961 he improvised 196 00:08:55,350 --> 00:08:53,600 saying this is a decision we all have to 197 00:08:57,509 --> 00:08:55,360 make because it's going to cost a lot of 198 00:09:00,310 --> 00:08:57,519 money we have to make that commitment 199 00:09:02,150 --> 00:09:00,320 and and he was willing at least for most 200 00:09:05,430 --> 00:09:02,160 of his presidency to sustain that 201 00:09:07,350 --> 00:09:05,440 commitment and at the end of 1962 202 00:09:09,590 --> 00:09:07,360 he was trying to figure out ways of 203 00:09:12,389 --> 00:09:09,600 accelerating the first landing to be 204 00:09:15,190 --> 00:09:12,399 sure to be there before the soviet union 205 00:09:17,670 --> 00:09:15,200 the nasa target was late 67 at that 206 00:09:20,150 --> 00:09:17,680 point and he was told maybe it could be 207 00:09:23,990 --> 00:09:20,160 six months even up to 12 months earlier 208 00:09:26,870 --> 00:09:24,000 he seemed willing to pay that price but 209 00:09:29,509 --> 00:09:26,880 10 months later he went before the u.n 210 00:09:31,910 --> 00:09:29,519 and said why should it be a 211 00:09:33,910 --> 00:09:31,920 an area of national competition why 212 00:09:35,269 --> 00:09:33,920 don't we do it together with the soviet 213 00:09:38,310 --> 00:09:35,279 union so 214 00:09:40,630 --> 00:09:38,320 it's where i am right now is is trying 215 00:09:42,870 --> 00:09:40,640 to figure out what he was thinking in 216 00:09:44,949 --> 00:09:42,880 those last couple of months of his life 217 00:09:47,990 --> 00:09:44,959 was he ready i don't think he was ready 218 00:09:50,710 --> 00:09:48,000 to abandon apollo but he may have been 219 00:09:52,389 --> 00:09:50,720 ready to slip the date a bit and see if 220 00:09:54,470 --> 00:09:52,399 we could do it together 221 00:09:55,910 --> 00:09:54,480 so why didn't we do it together 222 00:09:59,190 --> 00:09:55,920 well i think 223 00:10:02,790 --> 00:09:59,200 the political support was strongly tied 224 00:10:05,750 --> 00:10:02,800 to the competitive elements of apollo 225 00:10:07,990 --> 00:10:05,760 the soviet union at that point had not 226 00:10:10,470 --> 00:10:08,000 decided that it was going to race us to 227 00:10:12,470 --> 00:10:10,480 the moon it did in the following year so 228 00:10:16,949 --> 00:10:12,480 there wasn't a soviet program to 229 00:10:23,190 --> 00:10:20,150 and basically the soviet union and 230 00:10:25,030 --> 00:10:23,200 nikita khrushchev was only just coming 231 00:10:27,590 --> 00:10:25,040 to the notion that kennedy could be 232 00:10:30,069 --> 00:10:27,600 trusted uh that the united states could 233 00:10:31,670 --> 00:10:30,079 possibly be a partner so and one of 234 00:10:33,110 --> 00:10:31,680 these questions will never be able to 235 00:10:34,790 --> 00:10:33,120 answer is what would have happened if 236 00:10:36,550 --> 00:10:34,800 kennedy had lived 237 00:10:38,310 --> 00:10:36,560 so let me turn to roger roger how 238 00:10:40,150 --> 00:10:38,320 serious was the space race were the 239 00:10:42,069 --> 00:10:40,160 soviets ever close to 240 00:10:43,910 --> 00:10:42,079 getting humans on the moon was it a real 241 00:10:45,670 --> 00:10:43,920 race it was a real race no question 242 00:10:47,590 --> 00:10:45,680 about that but the soviets were never 243 00:10:50,069 --> 00:10:47,600 really close to reaching the moon before 244 00:10:52,710 --> 00:10:50,079 us by any means we didn't necessarily 245 00:10:54,790 --> 00:10:52,720 know that and we made decisions based 246 00:10:57,350 --> 00:10:54,800 upon perceptions rather than the reality 247 00:10:59,750 --> 00:10:57,360 of the soviet program but there was a 248 00:11:01,829 --> 00:10:59,760 sense all the time that 249 00:11:03,509 --> 00:11:01,839 you come up to the point where we decide 250 00:11:05,350 --> 00:11:03,519 to race to the moon where kennedy does 251 00:11:07,190 --> 00:11:05,360 make a 61 speech 252 00:11:08,630 --> 00:11:07,200 where it looks like the soviets are kind 253 00:11:12,870 --> 00:11:08,640 of 254 00:11:14,870 --> 00:11:12,880 are moving forward in a very aggressive 255 00:11:16,870 --> 00:11:14,880 program with sputnik with their first 256 00:11:19,350 --> 00:11:16,880 human flight with yuri gagarin with a 257 00:11:22,230 --> 00:11:19,360 succession of other firsts and it's not 258 00:11:25,110 --> 00:11:22,240 until the mid 1960s when really gemini 259 00:11:27,110 --> 00:11:25,120 starts to be successful that you get a a 260 00:11:29,509 --> 00:11:27,120 a change in public opinion where people 261 00:11:31,430 --> 00:11:29,519 start thinking that well maybe the us is 262 00:11:32,949 --> 00:11:31,440 as good as the soviet union and is 263 00:11:35,509 --> 00:11:32,959 actually surpassing them in their 264 00:11:37,509 --> 00:11:35,519 capabilities 265 00:11:38,870 --> 00:11:37,519 so with uh kennedy's proclamation that 266 00:11:41,030 --> 00:11:38,880 we saw there in that first clip the 267 00:11:43,190 --> 00:11:41,040 course was set for the moon as chris 268 00:11:45,509 --> 00:11:43,200 mentioned the there were 12 000 269 00:11:48,150 --> 00:11:45,519 companies 400 000 people 270 00:11:49,190 --> 00:11:48,160 20 or 25 billion dollars for the apollo 271 00:11:50,310 --> 00:11:49,200 program 272 00:11:52,069 --> 00:11:50,320 uh 273 00:13:30,710 --> 00:11:52,079 let's take a look at another clip before 274 00:13:35,430 --> 00:13:33,269 so mike neufeld you wrote the biography 275 00:13:36,389 --> 00:13:35,440 of on brown we saw von braun earlier in 276 00:13:37,750 --> 00:13:36,399 that clip 277 00:13:40,790 --> 00:13:37,760 could the united states have won the 278 00:13:42,389 --> 00:13:40,800 space race uh without von braun 279 00:13:44,150 --> 00:13:42,399 well uh the moon race 280 00:13:45,430 --> 00:13:44,160 it would have been hard to do it as soon 281 00:13:47,189 --> 00:13:45,440 as we did it whether we could have 282 00:13:49,509 --> 00:13:47,199 beaten the soviets kind of depends also 283 00:13:51,110 --> 00:13:49,519 on them and they clearly failed in many 284 00:13:52,949 --> 00:13:51,120 ways to fulfill their program he did 285 00:13:55,110 --> 00:13:52,959 play a very very central role in having 286 00:13:57,670 --> 00:13:55,120 a booster that worked and that was 287 00:13:59,910 --> 00:13:57,680 certainly his great uh contribution to 288 00:14:02,629 --> 00:13:59,920 the thing the fact that saturn 5 was so 289 00:14:04,870 --> 00:14:02,639 incredibly successful and never fail in 290 00:14:06,310 --> 00:14:04,880 spite of being the most challenging 291 00:14:07,829 --> 00:14:06,320 rocket engineering project ever 292 00:14:09,350 --> 00:14:07,839 attempted 293 00:14:11,350 --> 00:14:09,360 so von braun certainly was one of the 294 00:14:15,030 --> 00:14:11,360 key players 295 00:14:16,870 --> 00:14:15,040 i'd like to go to 296 00:14:17,990 --> 00:14:16,880 craig i know in your book you talk about 297 00:14:19,430 --> 00:14:18,000 a lot of the key players who would be 298 00:14:21,110 --> 00:14:19,440 your 299 00:14:22,550 --> 00:14:21,120 candidate for 300 00:14:24,230 --> 00:14:22,560 one or two more of the key players in 301 00:14:26,230 --> 00:14:24,240 this program well i'd have to pick three 302 00:14:28,310 --> 00:14:26,240 my number one would be lyndon johnson 303 00:14:29,509 --> 00:14:28,320 who was at the birth of nasa by heading 304 00:14:31,670 --> 00:14:29,519 up the senate in eisenhower 305 00:14:34,470 --> 00:14:31,680 administration who was behind the speech 306 00:14:36,230 --> 00:14:34,480 we saw kennedy giving and who made sure 307 00:14:38,710 --> 00:14:36,240 to reach those goals during his 308 00:14:41,670 --> 00:14:38,720 presidency saying he owed it to kennedy 309 00:14:44,069 --> 00:14:41,680 my other two heroes of apollo would be 310 00:14:46,629 --> 00:14:44,079 the politburo who deposed khrushchev and 311 00:14:48,790 --> 00:14:46,639 the medical team who let sergey korliov 312 00:14:51,509 --> 00:14:48,800 die on the operating table i think that 313 00:14:53,350 --> 00:14:51,519 the soviets losing their uh premier 314 00:14:55,829 --> 00:14:53,360 rocket scientist or premier rocket 315 00:14:57,670 --> 00:14:55,839 engineer excuse me mike uh and their 316 00:14:59,509 --> 00:14:57,680 premier supporter of that rocket 317 00:15:02,069 --> 00:14:59,519 scientist was a profound blow to them 318 00:15:04,150 --> 00:15:02,079 that khrushchev could use corey of space 319 00:15:07,189 --> 00:15:04,160 achievements to imply that he had a 320 00:15:08,949 --> 00:15:07,199 military operation as powerful as as the 321 00:15:10,550 --> 00:15:08,959 rockets orbiting in space when he did 322 00:15:12,629 --> 00:15:10,560 not and those two were formidable 323 00:15:14,389 --> 00:15:12,639 opponents 324 00:15:15,750 --> 00:15:14,399 so chris i know you weren't very old at 325 00:15:18,069 --> 00:15:15,760 the time that apollo was launched but 326 00:15:20,230 --> 00:15:18,079 from a point of view of operations uh 327 00:15:22,389 --> 00:15:20,240 would you have a candidate for a person 328 00:15:23,829 --> 00:15:22,399 who was crucial to uh to the apollo 329 00:15:25,590 --> 00:15:23,839 program 330 00:15:27,189 --> 00:15:25,600 i think i would have to say again von 331 00:15:29,110 --> 00:15:27,199 braun i mean he he designed an 332 00:15:31,030 --> 00:15:29,120 incredible launch vehicle the saturn v 333 00:15:32,790 --> 00:15:31,040 and and in the constellation program 334 00:15:35,910 --> 00:15:32,800 we're currently using a tremendous 335 00:15:39,030 --> 00:15:35,920 amount of legacy hardware heritage from 336 00:15:40,870 --> 00:15:39,040 the apollo program so i think i think 337 00:15:43,030 --> 00:15:40,880 we're building on 40 years of space 338 00:15:45,430 --> 00:15:43,040 flight experience and employing it into 339 00:15:46,550 --> 00:15:45,440 the current program for constellation 340 00:15:48,069 --> 00:15:46,560 and we're going to talk about that a 341 00:15:50,550 --> 00:15:48,079 little later also 342 00:15:52,389 --> 00:15:50,560 uh well of course we all know that the 343 00:15:55,030 --> 00:15:52,399 first 344 00:15:56,790 --> 00:15:55,040 manned apollo flight was apollo 7 345 00:15:58,629 --> 00:15:56,800 but things really heated up with apollo 346 00:16:00,069 --> 00:15:58,639 8 with that circumnavigation of the moon 347 00:16:03,430 --> 00:16:00,079 that we all remember with the christmas 348 00:16:05,110 --> 00:16:03,440 eve reading uh of genesis uh 349 00:16:18,310 --> 00:16:05,120 from around the moon let's take a look 350 00:16:23,030 --> 00:16:20,550 this is apollo saturn launch control we 351 00:16:28,389 --> 00:16:23,040 are still go at this time 352 00:16:29,430 --> 00:16:28,399 t-minus 15 14 13 12 11 353 00:16:30,790 --> 00:16:29,440 10 354 00:16:33,269 --> 00:16:30,800 9. 355 00:16:34,870 --> 00:16:33,279 we have ignition sequence start 356 00:16:44,550 --> 00:16:34,880 the engines are on 357 00:16:44,560 --> 00:16:59,990 7 51 a.m 358 00:17:03,990 --> 00:17:02,150 the crew of apollo 8 359 00:17:06,069 --> 00:17:04,000 has a message that we would like to send 360 00:17:07,669 --> 00:17:06,079 to you 361 00:17:10,789 --> 00:17:07,679 in the beginning 362 00:17:14,230 --> 00:17:10,799 god created the heaven and the earth 363 00:17:16,150 --> 00:17:14,240 and the earth was without form and void 364 00:17:29,350 --> 00:17:16,160 and darkness was upon the base of the 365 00:17:33,190 --> 00:17:31,590 so apollo 8 really was an incredible 366 00:17:34,870 --> 00:17:33,200 journey some people say was one of the 367 00:17:35,830 --> 00:17:34,880 riskiest missions the first time we 368 00:17:37,270 --> 00:17:35,840 actually 369 00:17:39,590 --> 00:17:37,280 left the 370 00:17:40,470 --> 00:17:39,600 earth orbital area and went around the 371 00:17:42,470 --> 00:17:40,480 moon 372 00:17:43,909 --> 00:17:42,480 just how risky was that mission let's 373 00:17:45,190 --> 00:17:43,919 talk a little bit about how risky it was 374 00:17:47,029 --> 00:17:45,200 and what was involved in that mission 375 00:17:49,669 --> 00:17:47,039 roger why don't you start us off oh sure 376 00:17:51,430 --> 00:17:49,679 absolutely apollo 8 was truly remarkable 377 00:17:52,870 --> 00:17:51,440 and and quite frankly adding to your 378 00:17:54,230 --> 00:17:52,880 comment earlier about who were some of 379 00:17:55,669 --> 00:17:54,240 the key people that that made 380 00:17:57,750 --> 00:17:55,679 contributions you've got a couple of 381 00:18:00,230 --> 00:17:57,760 them that come to the fore pretty 382 00:18:02,549 --> 00:18:00,240 importantly in the apollo 8 story and 383 00:18:04,630 --> 00:18:02,559 that is george miller who headed the 384 00:18:06,470 --> 00:18:04,640 uh the human space flight program man's 385 00:18:08,870 --> 00:18:06,480 office of man space flight in those days 386 00:18:11,909 --> 00:18:08,880 and sam phillips who ran the program 387 00:18:14,710 --> 00:18:11,919 office for apollo and 388 00:18:16,950 --> 00:18:14,720 the idea was and it was a very gutsy 389 00:18:19,669 --> 00:18:16,960 decision to 390 00:18:22,390 --> 00:18:19,679 fly humans the second time we had flown 391 00:18:24,310 --> 00:18:22,400 a crew on the apollo spacecraft 392 00:18:26,310 --> 00:18:24,320 and this really the second time we had 393 00:18:27,990 --> 00:18:26,320 flown the saturn v stack 394 00:18:31,029 --> 00:18:28,000 to go to the moon with it that was a 395 00:18:33,430 --> 00:18:31,039 remarkable uh and gutsy call on the part 396 00:18:35,350 --> 00:18:33,440 of some key people who had who had done 397 00:18:37,270 --> 00:18:35,360 assessments and decided that this was 398 00:18:39,350 --> 00:18:37,280 something they could pull off 399 00:18:42,070 --> 00:18:39,360 and that they believed was probably 400 00:18:44,150 --> 00:18:42,080 necessary to ensure that they remained 401 00:18:45,750 --> 00:18:44,160 on schedule to make a a landing by the 402 00:18:46,710 --> 00:18:45,760 end of the next year by the end of the 403 00:18:47,990 --> 00:18:46,720 decade 404 00:18:50,150 --> 00:18:48,000 and uh 405 00:18:53,110 --> 00:18:50,160 and they and they did it it was it was a 406 00:18:56,630 --> 00:18:53,120 wonderful success story and it was a 407 00:19:00,390 --> 00:18:56,640 remarkable end to a pretty awful year in 408 00:19:02,310 --> 00:19:00,400 1968 a year that started with uh with 409 00:19:03,990 --> 00:19:02,320 enormous difficulties in vietnam with 410 00:19:05,750 --> 00:19:04,000 the access with the assassinations of 411 00:19:08,150 --> 00:19:05,760 martin luther king and 412 00:19:09,590 --> 00:19:08,160 uh and robert kennedy with 413 00:19:11,270 --> 00:19:09,600 riots at the democratic national 414 00:19:13,669 --> 00:19:11,280 convention in the summer and just on and 415 00:19:15,830 --> 00:19:13,679 on and on and the whole the whole nation 416 00:19:18,070 --> 00:19:15,840 seemed to be blowing up and at the end 417 00:19:20,070 --> 00:19:18,080 of the year this apollo 8 flight which 418 00:19:23,669 --> 00:19:20,080 was truly remarkable where the 419 00:19:25,350 --> 00:19:23,679 astronauts uh uh talk about 420 00:19:27,190 --> 00:19:25,360 the good earth and send christmas 421 00:19:28,390 --> 00:19:27,200 greetings to all the people that reside 422 00:19:30,710 --> 00:19:28,400 there 423 00:19:33,350 --> 00:19:30,720 john your thoughts i'd add to the hero 424 00:19:36,150 --> 00:19:33,360 list george lowe absolutely george was 425 00:19:38,870 --> 00:19:36,160 the one one morning in july with the 426 00:19:40,630 --> 00:19:38,880 lunar modules being late on its schedule 427 00:19:42,630 --> 00:19:40,640 went to see bob gilruth head of the 428 00:19:45,669 --> 00:19:42,640 manned spacecraft center and said i've 429 00:19:47,590 --> 00:19:45,679 got an idea let's go around the moon 430 00:19:50,310 --> 00:19:47,600 chris craft was brought in 431 00:19:52,870 --> 00:19:50,320 could you could operations support that 432 00:19:54,470 --> 00:19:52,880 they called up von braun in huntsville 433 00:19:57,510 --> 00:19:54,480 and said could we come over and talk to 434 00:19:59,510 --> 00:19:57,520 you flew to huntsville sam phillips was 435 00:20:02,310 --> 00:19:59,520 at the cape and kurt dibus i believe it 436 00:20:03,990 --> 00:20:02,320 was at the cave came to huntsville 437 00:20:06,310 --> 00:20:04,000 by that afternoon 438 00:20:08,870 --> 00:20:06,320 the fundamental decision was made to do 439 00:20:11,510 --> 00:20:08,880 this mission you know like six hours can 440 00:20:14,310 --> 00:20:11,520 you imagine in today's world making a 441 00:20:15,909 --> 00:20:14,320 decision like that in six hours not 442 00:20:17,270 --> 00:20:15,919 really mike do you want to elaborate on 443 00:20:19,669 --> 00:20:17,280 that 444 00:20:20,950 --> 00:20:19,679 i wanted to mention bob gilruth and john 445 00:20:23,430 --> 00:20:20,960 already mentioned him but if we're going 446 00:20:26,470 --> 00:20:23,440 to make lay out the the key players in 447 00:20:29,669 --> 00:20:26,480 apollo here was a guy who built uh 448 00:20:32,070 --> 00:20:29,679 houston from a little group at uh at the 449 00:20:34,950 --> 00:20:32,080 langley center in 1958 creating the 450 00:20:36,950 --> 00:20:34,960 mercury program and going from that to 451 00:20:39,190 --> 00:20:36,960 this giant center that was an enormous 452 00:20:42,549 --> 00:20:39,200 accomplishment building the spacecraft 453 00:20:44,549 --> 00:20:42,559 and astronaut part of the apollo program 454 00:20:46,549 --> 00:20:44,559 and how did von braun 455 00:20:49,270 --> 00:20:46,559 feel about this apollo 8 going to the 456 00:20:52,310 --> 00:20:49,280 moon after the after the only one 457 00:20:54,070 --> 00:20:52,320 well i mean you know as as uh roger 458 00:20:56,630 --> 00:20:54,080 outlined that was a decision they made 459 00:20:58,310 --> 00:20:56,640 in his office and basically he felt okay 460 00:21:00,470 --> 00:20:58,320 with the saturn v because in fact it was 461 00:21:03,110 --> 00:21:00,480 the third launch and the second one 462 00:21:06,230 --> 00:21:03,120 hadn't gone well at all so it was also a 463 00:21:08,470 --> 00:21:06,240 risky decision to put a human on of the 464 00:21:10,950 --> 00:21:08,480 saturn v after the second test didn't go 465 00:21:13,029 --> 00:21:10,960 so well but he had the total confidence 466 00:21:15,590 --> 00:21:13,039 in the system in his engineers and in 467 00:21:18,230 --> 00:21:15,600 the testing program that had revealed 468 00:21:20,310 --> 00:21:18,240 what had gone wrong on the second launch 469 00:21:22,950 --> 00:21:20,320 in agency history what's fantastic about 470 00:21:25,510 --> 00:21:22,960 apollo 8 is that the apollo one fire had 471 00:21:27,590 --> 00:21:25,520 crippled the agency so terribly and with 472 00:21:29,430 --> 00:21:27,600 so many executives and management people 473 00:21:31,510 --> 00:21:29,440 leaving that really they they're almost 474 00:21:34,390 --> 00:21:31,520 in a doldrums and then apollo 8 comes 475 00:21:36,710 --> 00:21:34,400 along and this completely insane idea 476 00:21:38,390 --> 00:21:36,720 that works propels the agency forward 477 00:21:39,909 --> 00:21:38,400 and really we're ahead in the space race 478 00:21:41,110 --> 00:21:39,919 with the soviets for the first time at 479 00:21:43,350 --> 00:21:41,120 that moment really amazing when you 480 00:21:46,230 --> 00:21:43,360 think about it the fire in 1967 and then 481 00:21:48,549 --> 00:21:46,240 this in 1968 the end of 1968 but we were 482 00:21:50,149 --> 00:21:48,559 already going around the moon 483 00:21:51,830 --> 00:21:50,159 i'd like to make a comment obviously i'm 484 00:21:53,909 --> 00:21:51,840 of the younger generation i was for 485 00:21:55,669 --> 00:21:53,919 during the apollo program but the one 486 00:21:57,510 --> 00:21:55,679 thing that does amaze me is the entire 487 00:21:59,669 --> 00:21:57,520 program itself they were learning how to 488 00:22:01,190 --> 00:21:59,679 fly in space while also developing the 489 00:22:03,190 --> 00:22:01,200 launch vehicles and spacecraft and i 490 00:22:04,789 --> 00:22:03,200 think that's a huge feat 491 00:22:06,310 --> 00:22:04,799 something that once again in the 492 00:22:08,470 --> 00:22:06,320 constellation program we're building on 493 00:22:09,830 --> 00:22:08,480 that experience over 40 years and we 494 00:22:12,470 --> 00:22:09,840 don't have that extra challenge of 495 00:22:14,070 --> 00:22:12,480 learning how to fly in space so i think 496 00:22:16,149 --> 00:22:14,080 that was amazing 497 00:22:17,990 --> 00:22:16,159 i think there's one still unresolved 498 00:22:20,310 --> 00:22:18,000 historical question 499 00:22:21,830 --> 00:22:20,320 related to apollo 8. 500 00:22:24,310 --> 00:22:21,840 the cia 501 00:22:26,710 --> 00:22:24,320 projected that the soviet union might 502 00:22:29,669 --> 00:22:26,720 send a crew around the moon looping 503 00:22:32,230 --> 00:22:29,679 around the moon by the end of 1968 504 00:22:33,990 --> 00:22:32,240 uh and and question is 505 00:22:35,669 --> 00:22:34,000 and i've i've looked at this paper 506 00:22:38,070 --> 00:22:35,679 record pretty carefully but that would 507 00:22:39,750 --> 00:22:38,080 have been highly classified stuff how 508 00:22:41,750 --> 00:22:39,760 much that 509 00:22:44,149 --> 00:22:41,760 influenced the decision to fly a mission 510 00:22:46,630 --> 00:22:44,159 to the moon to make sure that we got not 511 00:22:48,630 --> 00:22:46,640 only on the moon but to the moon 512 00:22:50,230 --> 00:22:48,640 before the soviet union well that had to 513 00:22:52,470 --> 00:22:50,240 be one of the drivers if we hadn't been 514 00:22:54,390 --> 00:22:52,480 in this race and been worried really in 515 00:22:55,669 --> 00:22:54,400 a real sense that that they might beat 516 00:22:57,750 --> 00:22:55,679 us surely we wouldn't have done this 517 00:22:59,909 --> 00:22:57,760 apollo 8 mission at that time right 518 00:23:02,789 --> 00:22:59,919 we were flying blind pretty much they 519 00:23:04,630 --> 00:23:02,799 the the the pentagon and cia did not 520 00:23:07,110 --> 00:23:04,640 share much with nasa who they considered 521 00:23:08,710 --> 00:23:07,120 civilian blabbermouth so they kept a lot 522 00:23:09,990 --> 00:23:08,720 of stuff to themselves but a lot of 523 00:23:11,590 --> 00:23:10,000 stuff they kept to themselves wasn't 524 00:23:13,350 --> 00:23:11,600 worth sharing in the first place so it 525 00:23:15,350 --> 00:23:13,360 didn't really miss out but i i believe 526 00:23:18,070 --> 00:23:15,360 nasa executives were pretty much flying 527 00:23:19,110 --> 00:23:18,080 blind against the soviets 528 00:23:21,270 --> 00:23:19,120 you know i would 529 00:23:23,590 --> 00:23:21,280 to you know agree with your point steve 530 00:23:26,230 --> 00:23:23,600 i think they really were driven by this 531 00:23:28,390 --> 00:23:26,240 in a way that wouldn't be replicated now 532 00:23:31,029 --> 00:23:28,400 because they they took decisions that 533 00:23:32,789 --> 00:23:31,039 were risky at several points in time and 534 00:23:34,470 --> 00:23:32,799 if they had been in another situation 535 00:23:36,470 --> 00:23:34,480 would said well do this when when it's 536 00:23:39,190 --> 00:23:36,480 con when it's feasible 537 00:23:40,710 --> 00:23:39,200 uh don't take any chances then it would 538 00:23:43,510 --> 00:23:40,720 have taken two or three years longer to 539 00:23:45,510 --> 00:23:43,520 land on the moon probably uh so when did 540 00:23:48,870 --> 00:23:45,520 we find out that the soviets were not 541 00:23:55,190 --> 00:23:48,880 really that much in the race 542 00:23:58,870 --> 00:23:57,269 of what was taking place it turns out 543 00:24:01,350 --> 00:23:58,880 they were blowing up rockets as we were 544 00:24:03,110 --> 00:24:01,360 going to the moon right but we did know 545 00:24:06,789 --> 00:24:03,120 that they were building a moon rock our 546 00:24:09,110 --> 00:24:06,799 our now declassified corona satellites 547 00:24:11,190 --> 00:24:09,120 took images of the n1 rocket on the 548 00:24:13,430 --> 00:24:11,200 launch pad we knew that they 549 00:24:14,870 --> 00:24:13,440 were developing the the launch vehicle i 550 00:24:17,029 --> 00:24:14,880 guess we didn't see 551 00:24:18,870 --> 00:24:17,039 uh the i mean 552 00:24:21,909 --> 00:24:18,880 alexi lee enough was trained for the 553 00:24:23,510 --> 00:24:21,919 mission they built a lunar lander uh 554 00:24:25,110 --> 00:24:23,520 i guess we didn't see that until much 555 00:24:26,149 --> 00:24:25,120 later they built a moon suit which you 556 00:24:29,669 --> 00:24:26,159 mean 557 00:24:31,669 --> 00:24:29,679 on july 4th 69 the cia corona satellite 558 00:24:33,830 --> 00:24:31,679 captured one of these giant rockets on 559 00:24:35,990 --> 00:24:33,840 the pad at the baikonur cosmodrome and 560 00:24:38,390 --> 00:24:36,000 when it passed over a second time it was 561 00:24:39,590 --> 00:24:38,400 gone and it exploded on the pad and when 562 00:24:41,269 --> 00:24:39,600 it exploded 563 00:24:43,350 --> 00:24:41,279 they they knew something bad had 564 00:24:45,269 --> 00:24:43,360 happened but it was not clear from this 565 00:24:47,029 --> 00:24:45,279 what happened and we found out i think 566 00:24:49,190 --> 00:24:47,039 in 1974 567 00:24:50,710 --> 00:24:49,200 that this rocket if apollo 11 had failed 568 00:24:53,430 --> 00:24:50,720 this rocket was immediately going to 569 00:24:55,110 --> 00:24:53,440 attempt a moon landing 570 00:24:57,350 --> 00:24:55,120 i i would argue with that because i 571 00:24:59,110 --> 00:24:57,360 think in fact they were not ready to man 572 00:25:01,669 --> 00:24:59,120 the vehicle in fact they were several 573 00:25:03,909 --> 00:25:01,679 years away from manning that n1 vehicle 574 00:25:05,750 --> 00:25:03,919 this was just a launch test and they 575 00:25:07,510 --> 00:25:05,760 hadn't had one that worked and that one 576 00:25:10,390 --> 00:25:07,520 didn't work either and in fact it never 577 00:25:13,430 --> 00:25:10,400 did work so so i mean i think the race 578 00:25:15,990 --> 00:25:13,440 was over in 68 uh but it was hard to 579 00:25:17,510 --> 00:25:16,000 tell that until the day that apollo 11 580 00:25:19,269 --> 00:25:17,520 pulled it off and then you could look in 581 00:25:20,870 --> 00:25:19,279 hindsight and say sure we beat them on 582 00:25:22,950 --> 00:25:20,880 all fronts you know did they ever have a 583 00:25:24,950 --> 00:25:22,960 fancier name for the n1 like i mean we 584 00:25:26,950 --> 00:25:24,960 had the saturn v which you know has a 585 00:25:28,390 --> 00:25:26,960 little class but the n1 was never never 586 00:25:31,269 --> 00:25:28,400 had a name no no 587 00:25:33,029 --> 00:25:31,279 i mean i think the fact that is uh yeah 588 00:25:34,310 --> 00:25:33,039 they only had acronyms 589 00:25:36,070 --> 00:25:34,320 that was the problem with losing 590 00:25:39,110 --> 00:25:36,080 khrushchev he came up with all these 591 00:25:41,909 --> 00:25:39,120 spiffy names for the rockets 592 00:25:44,230 --> 00:25:41,919 okay let's move on then uh with apollo 593 00:25:45,110 --> 00:25:44,240 10 we came within a few thousand feet of 594 00:25:48,630 --> 00:25:45,120 the 595 00:25:52,149 --> 00:25:48,640 watch 596 00:26:08,950 --> 00:25:52,159 down two and a half picking up 597 00:26:12,870 --> 00:26:10,950 engine command override off 598 00:26:16,310 --> 00:26:12,880 engine arm off 599 00:26:19,750 --> 00:26:18,549 we've had shut down we copy you down 600 00:26:23,510 --> 00:26:19,760 eagle 601 00:26:25,750 --> 00:26:23,520 okay everybody key one standby for d1 602 00:26:29,029 --> 00:26:25,760 tranquility base here the eagle has 603 00:26:30,789 --> 00:26:29,039 landed roger 20 tranquility we copy you 604 00:26:32,630 --> 00:26:30,799 on the ground you got a bunch of guys 605 00:26:33,830 --> 00:26:32,640 about to turn blue we're breathing again 606 00:26:36,870 --> 00:26:33,840 thanks a lot 607 00:26:47,909 --> 00:26:36,880 okay t1 stay no stay retro 608 00:26:47,919 --> 00:26:57,750 now 609 00:26:57,760 --> 00:27:02,710 that's one small step for man 610 00:27:21,510 --> 00:27:03,669 one 611 00:27:26,230 --> 00:27:23,750 here men from the planet earth 612 00:27:30,549 --> 00:27:26,240 first set foot upon the moon 613 00:27:36,870 --> 00:27:34,630 it came in peace for all mankind 614 00:27:39,110 --> 00:27:36,880 those are all iconic images that many of 615 00:27:41,190 --> 00:27:39,120 us remember maybe not chris but 616 00:27:43,110 --> 00:27:41,200 a lot of us remember where we were at 617 00:27:44,710 --> 00:27:43,120 that time and just today nasa released 618 00:27:46,789 --> 00:27:44,720 some of the uh 619 00:27:49,110 --> 00:27:46,799 new higher resolution footage from from 620 00:27:50,789 --> 00:27:49,120 those images there are lots of questions 621 00:27:54,310 --> 00:27:50,799 we can we can uh 622 00:27:55,990 --> 00:27:54,320 address here uh let's start with uh 623 00:27:58,710 --> 00:27:56,000 the question of how 624 00:28:00,870 --> 00:27:58,720 did it happen that armstrong and aldrin 625 00:28:03,590 --> 00:28:00,880 uh were the first uh two humans on the 626 00:28:05,669 --> 00:28:03,600 moon 627 00:28:08,549 --> 00:28:05,679 well it's because 628 00:28:09,669 --> 00:28:08,559 all the missions before 11 were went off 629 00:28:12,549 --> 00:28:09,679 perfectly 630 00:28:15,750 --> 00:28:12,559 i mean the the crews were uh 631 00:28:17,990 --> 00:28:15,760 chosen for a sequence of missions uh the 632 00:28:20,789 --> 00:28:18,000 first g mission which was a landing 633 00:28:22,710 --> 00:28:20,799 mission crew was chosen in january 634 00:28:25,110 --> 00:28:22,720 but that meant that apollo 9 and apollo 635 00:28:27,990 --> 00:28:25,120 10 had to be successful for them to be 636 00:28:30,149 --> 00:28:28,000 the ones to try the landing on 11. 637 00:28:32,230 --> 00:28:30,159 so uh 638 00:28:33,990 --> 00:28:32,240 in a sense it was was normal program 639 00:28:35,909 --> 00:28:34,000 management 640 00:28:38,549 --> 00:28:35,919 yeah there wasn't anything magical about 641 00:28:40,149 --> 00:28:38,559 this and and uh and of course crew 642 00:28:41,830 --> 00:28:40,159 rotation is one of the great parlor 643 00:28:44,070 --> 00:28:41,840 games that those of us who are kind of 644 00:28:45,590 --> 00:28:44,080 space cadets like to play uh you know 645 00:28:47,590 --> 00:28:45,600 who would have been on what mission if 646 00:28:48,950 --> 00:28:47,600 something had happened and so on and so 647 00:28:50,149 --> 00:28:48,960 forth and we can never know the answer 648 00:28:54,549 --> 00:28:50,159 to those things 649 00:28:56,389 --> 00:28:54,559 um but uh but the reality was that uh 650 00:28:57,830 --> 00:28:56,399 through um 651 00:29:00,389 --> 00:28:57,840 through the machinations of the 652 00:29:02,549 --> 00:29:00,399 astronaut office uh this particular crew 653 00:29:04,549 --> 00:29:02,559 got put together and it was assigned to 654 00:29:08,070 --> 00:29:04,559 this particular mission the previous 655 00:29:10,310 --> 00:29:08,080 flights as john said did uh perform 656 00:29:12,389 --> 00:29:10,320 their tasks successfully had they not 657 00:29:13,510 --> 00:29:12,399 done so and had to repeat the same 658 00:29:15,590 --> 00:29:13,520 mission to 659 00:29:17,190 --> 00:29:15,600 uh to figure out how to do this thing it 660 00:29:19,909 --> 00:29:17,200 would have it would have fallen to pete 661 00:29:22,549 --> 00:29:19,919 conrad or someone else down the road to 662 00:29:24,070 --> 00:29:22,559 make that first landing 663 00:29:25,510 --> 00:29:24,080 we saw that landing on the on the 664 00:29:27,669 --> 00:29:25,520 footage there 665 00:29:29,830 --> 00:29:27,679 why was that landing so unexpectedly 666 00:29:31,669 --> 00:29:29,840 exciting with only a few seconds of fuel 667 00:29:33,669 --> 00:29:31,679 left was that planned or not planned or 668 00:29:35,269 --> 00:29:33,679 what's the story there it was the most 669 00:29:37,990 --> 00:29:35,279 difficult 670 00:29:39,669 --> 00:29:38,000 landing in general to pull off because 671 00:29:41,190 --> 00:29:39,679 of course partly because after they did 672 00:29:43,269 --> 00:29:41,200 it once they knew how to do it better 673 00:29:44,870 --> 00:29:43,279 but they had a problem with the computer 674 00:29:47,430 --> 00:29:44,880 alarms because of a conflict between the 675 00:29:49,110 --> 00:29:47,440 rendezvous radar and the landing radar 676 00:29:52,470 --> 00:29:49,120 they had a 677 00:29:53,350 --> 00:29:52,480 problem of uh targeting so they couldn't 678 00:29:55,029 --> 00:29:53,360 target 679 00:29:56,630 --> 00:29:55,039 the thing very accurately and they ended 680 00:29:59,029 --> 00:29:56,640 up coming down towards a field of 681 00:30:00,950 --> 00:29:59,039 boulders and armstrong had to go manual 682 00:30:02,789 --> 00:30:00,960 and go over top of it and stretch his 683 00:30:04,870 --> 00:30:02,799 landing out one of my favorite 684 00:30:06,950 --> 00:30:04,880 discoveries in doing this book was 685 00:30:09,190 --> 00:30:06,960 to read about how everyone at mission 686 00:30:10,870 --> 00:30:09,200 control is turning blue waiting for them 687 00:30:13,350 --> 00:30:10,880 to land fearful they're going to run out 688 00:30:14,870 --> 00:30:13,360 of gas and crash and one guy had done 689 00:30:16,149 --> 00:30:14,880 tests up at grumman with the lunar 690 00:30:17,510 --> 00:30:16,159 module and he had found that if they 691 00:30:19,430 --> 00:30:17,520 tried to come down with too much 692 00:30:21,190 --> 00:30:19,440 propellant in the tank the blowback 693 00:30:22,950 --> 00:30:21,200 might blow up the ship so while everyone 694 00:30:25,750 --> 00:30:22,960 at mission control is praying they don't 695 00:30:28,710 --> 00:30:25,760 run out of gas he's praying that they do 696 00:30:31,750 --> 00:30:28,720 well i i think chris can tell you uh 697 00:30:34,549 --> 00:30:31,760 we've got lunar reconnaissance orbiter 698 00:30:37,190 --> 00:30:34,559 in orbit around the moon now to look for 699 00:30:39,990 --> 00:30:37,200 landing sites i mean we landed on the 700 00:30:42,549 --> 00:30:40,000 moon in 1969 with very limited 701 00:30:44,789 --> 00:30:42,559 information about the lunar surface and 702 00:30:46,710 --> 00:30:44,799 so the navigation had them going to this 703 00:30:49,029 --> 00:30:46,720 field of boulders and it was only 704 00:30:51,669 --> 00:30:49,039 because you had a really good pilot 705 00:30:54,630 --> 00:30:51,679 named neil armstrong to take over manual 706 00:30:57,350 --> 00:30:54,640 control and fly that thing for what 90 707 00:30:58,710 --> 00:30:57,360 seconds or so away from danger that the 708 00:30:59,830 --> 00:30:58,720 landing was successful we did have the 709 00:31:02,070 --> 00:30:59,840 lunar orbiters but i guess the 710 00:31:04,389 --> 00:31:02,080 resolution wasn't that good right not as 711 00:31:05,909 --> 00:31:04,399 good as we're getting now right well he 712 00:31:07,590 --> 00:31:05,919 had all of these charts and pictures but 713 00:31:10,310 --> 00:31:07,600 they were from four miles behind him 714 00:31:13,350 --> 00:31:11,590 uh 715 00:31:14,870 --> 00:31:13,360 okay well let me we get a lot of 716 00:31:17,350 --> 00:31:14,880 questions from the public and they're 717 00:31:19,669 --> 00:31:17,360 about this uh this mission in particular 718 00:31:21,750 --> 00:31:19,679 uh one of the questions uh that we got 719 00:31:24,230 --> 00:31:21,760 this last week is 720 00:31:25,909 --> 00:31:24,240 were armstrong's words scripted or were 721 00:31:28,230 --> 00:31:25,919 they his own 722 00:31:29,830 --> 00:31:28,240 all his own uh he wasn't even gonna say 723 00:31:33,190 --> 00:31:29,840 a thing 724 00:31:36,070 --> 00:31:33,200 the whole 90 seconds he's landing and 725 00:31:38,230 --> 00:31:36,080 everyone is going crazy back home uh 726 00:31:40,549 --> 00:31:38,240 he he said later that he was inspired by 727 00:31:42,230 --> 00:31:40,559 the game giant steps baby steps also 728 00:31:43,669 --> 00:31:42,240 known as mother may i 729 00:31:45,590 --> 00:31:43,679 and uh 730 00:31:47,509 --> 00:31:45,600 i grew up in a family of midwestern 731 00:31:49,190 --> 00:31:47,519 drawlers so i can actually hear him say 732 00:31:50,470 --> 00:31:49,200 a man would i hear this tape but i'm 733 00:31:53,029 --> 00:31:50,480 apparently the only person who's ever 734 00:31:55,029 --> 00:31:53,039 heard him say a man 735 00:31:58,549 --> 00:31:55,039 i i think it's remarkable that someone 736 00:32:00,549 --> 00:31:58,559 as shy and as physics and math oriented 737 00:32:01,909 --> 00:32:00,559 as armstrong came up with one of the 738 00:32:04,149 --> 00:32:01,919 greatest lines in history it's a 739 00:32:05,830 --> 00:32:04,159 beautiful beautiful expression really 740 00:32:07,590 --> 00:32:05,840 fantastic so what about that one small 741 00:32:09,909 --> 00:32:07,600 step for amen that's another question we 742 00:32:11,669 --> 00:32:09,919 always get did he say amen or or not 743 00:32:15,509 --> 00:32:11,679 because there have been voice analyses 744 00:32:17,110 --> 00:32:15,519 done and they seem ambiguous well i mean 745 00:32:19,350 --> 00:32:17,120 nobody really hears it on the tape 746 00:32:20,310 --> 00:32:19,360 except of course craig 747 00:32:21,909 --> 00:32:20,320 and 748 00:32:24,230 --> 00:32:21,919 um 749 00:32:25,509 --> 00:32:24,240 so so it it and it doesn't make quite 750 00:32:27,509 --> 00:32:25,519 the same sense as it would if he said 751 00:32:29,590 --> 00:32:27,519 that's one small step for a man one 752 00:32:31,190 --> 00:32:29,600 giant leap for mankind it's quite 753 00:32:33,350 --> 00:32:31,200 conceivable that in the excitement of 754 00:32:35,190 --> 00:32:33,360 the moment he simply passed over what he 755 00:32:36,789 --> 00:32:35,200 had thought about saying 756 00:32:40,310 --> 00:32:36,799 heck that happens to everybody all the 757 00:32:42,789 --> 00:32:40,320 time the um 758 00:32:45,990 --> 00:32:42,799 if if he did indeed say it and there has 759 00:32:47,590 --> 00:32:46,000 been some voice analysis uh done by some 760 00:32:49,830 --> 00:32:47,600 engineers who've gone back and looked at 761 00:32:51,509 --> 00:32:49,840 the digital recording of this to suggest 762 00:32:53,430 --> 00:32:51,519 that there is an a in there somewhere 763 00:32:56,310 --> 00:32:53,440 that kind of got lost in the 764 00:32:59,269 --> 00:32:56,320 uh in the transmission uh if that's the 765 00:33:00,789 --> 00:32:59,279 case then terrific does it really matter 766 00:33:02,789 --> 00:33:00,799 no well the bottom line is that 767 00:33:04,470 --> 00:33:02,799 armstrong himself says that he meant to 768 00:33:06,230 --> 00:33:04,480 say it right yes he did intend to say 769 00:33:08,070 --> 00:33:06,240 right right and he's asked us to write 770 00:33:10,070 --> 00:33:08,080 it with a parenthesis and i think we owe 771 00:33:11,830 --> 00:33:10,080 him that okay in the parenthesis that 772 00:33:14,230 --> 00:33:11,840 solves that problem yeah 773 00:33:16,789 --> 00:33:14,240 another question we always get is uh did 774 00:33:18,870 --> 00:33:16,799 armstrong and and uh aldrin have cyanide 775 00:33:19,830 --> 00:33:18,880 pills in case the ascent engine didn't 776 00:33:21,350 --> 00:33:19,840 work 777 00:33:23,830 --> 00:33:21,360 all they needed to do was take off their 778 00:33:26,870 --> 00:33:23,840 helmets like i came across one report of 779 00:33:29,509 --> 00:33:26,880 someone who in a nasa experience had a 780 00:33:31,190 --> 00:33:29,519 nasa experiment had experienced vacuum 781 00:33:32,630 --> 00:33:31,200 and he said that after 12 seconds he 782 00:33:34,470 --> 00:33:32,640 could feel the saliva on the tongue 783 00:33:35,750 --> 00:33:34,480 beginning to boil and then he passed out 784 00:33:37,909 --> 00:33:35,760 and he pulled him out but i'm not sure 785 00:33:39,350 --> 00:33:37,919 how accurate that is but but all they 786 00:33:41,110 --> 00:33:39,360 had to do was put off pull off their 787 00:33:42,389 --> 00:33:41,120 helmets and they'd be gone that's a huge 788 00:33:43,430 --> 00:33:42,399 urban legend a lot of people think 789 00:33:45,430 --> 00:33:43,440 that's true 790 00:33:47,590 --> 00:33:45,440 um and finally what do you say uh to 791 00:33:50,630 --> 00:33:47,600 skeptics who say how do you prove that 792 00:33:55,029 --> 00:33:52,870 800 pounds of moon rocks for starters 793 00:33:56,549 --> 00:33:55,039 distributed all over the world that's my 794 00:33:58,950 --> 00:33:56,559 favorite there's another armstrong quote 795 00:34:00,549 --> 00:33:58,960 he says he he thinks it's it was so much 796 00:34:02,070 --> 00:34:00,559 easier to just go there than it would be 797 00:34:04,389 --> 00:34:02,080 to fake it 798 00:34:06,470 --> 00:34:04,399 with 12 000 companies 400 000 people 799 00:34:08,470 --> 00:34:06,480 exactly right exactly but but my 800 00:34:10,310 --> 00:34:08,480 favorite is in fact the the reports of 801 00:34:11,909 --> 00:34:10,320 the astronauts coming back from the moon 802 00:34:13,109 --> 00:34:11,919 when you piece them all together and get 803 00:34:15,270 --> 00:34:13,119 this whole picture of what it's like to 804 00:34:17,589 --> 00:34:15,280 be there it's so bizarre no one could 805 00:34:18,869 --> 00:34:17,599 have made this up before going 806 00:34:20,710 --> 00:34:18,879 well and 807 00:34:24,790 --> 00:34:20,720 i was 808 00:34:27,190 --> 00:34:24,800 there on uh july the 16th 1969. i got 809 00:34:29,510 --> 00:34:27,200 out in the middle of the morning uh at 810 00:34:31,510 --> 00:34:29,520 the operations building watched the crew 811 00:34:34,230 --> 00:34:31,520 walk by me 812 00:34:36,069 --> 00:34:34,240 on their way to the pad and then saw the 813 00:34:40,149 --> 00:34:36,079 launch 814 00:34:41,589 --> 00:34:40,159 so they had to go somewhere uh and and 815 00:34:44,550 --> 00:34:41,599 you know there's a law in philosophy 816 00:34:46,629 --> 00:34:44,560 called occam's razor that that says pick 817 00:34:48,710 --> 00:34:46,639 the simplest explanation and the 818 00:34:49,510 --> 00:34:48,720 simplest explanation is that they went 819 00:34:51,349 --> 00:34:49,520 right 820 00:34:52,710 --> 00:34:51,359 but there are something like five or six 821 00:34:53,990 --> 00:34:52,720 percent of the american population that 822 00:34:55,270 --> 00:34:54,000 are skeptics still 823 00:34:57,109 --> 00:34:55,280 maybe that says something about our 824 00:34:59,109 --> 00:34:57,119 society well it says a lot about our 825 00:35:01,430 --> 00:34:59,119 society i think we love conspiracies i 826 00:35:02,790 --> 00:35:01,440 mean maybe the whole world does but we 827 00:35:04,470 --> 00:35:02,800 and we and we love to think that there's 828 00:35:05,910 --> 00:35:04,480 these outrageous things that that are 829 00:35:07,910 --> 00:35:05,920 somehow being manipulated behind the 830 00:35:10,230 --> 00:35:07,920 scenes to pull one over on us 831 00:35:13,750 --> 00:35:10,240 uh and branch of psychology and and and 832 00:35:15,190 --> 00:35:13,760 of course it is nuts uh at some level uh 833 00:35:17,670 --> 00:35:15,200 but i will say that the die-hard 834 00:35:19,829 --> 00:35:17,680 believers in in a conspiracy theory will 835 00:35:21,589 --> 00:35:19,839 not be persuaded by evidence no matter 836 00:35:24,230 --> 00:35:21,599 what evidence there is so you cannot 837 00:35:26,790 --> 00:35:24,240 prove it to them we're by the way about 838 00:35:30,230 --> 00:35:26,800 to get evidence the lunar reconnaissance 839 00:35:33,030 --> 00:35:30,240 orbiter has a 1.4 meter resolution so 840 00:35:35,589 --> 00:35:33,040 it's going to show us the uh descent 841 00:35:37,270 --> 00:35:35,599 stages of the lunar modules sitting at 842 00:35:39,190 --> 00:35:37,280 the landing site i have a feeling some 843 00:35:41,670 --> 00:35:39,200 people still won't be satisfied 844 00:35:43,589 --> 00:35:41,680 simply say you faked those images and 845 00:35:45,349 --> 00:35:43,599 you're a part of the conspiracy okay 846 00:35:47,829 --> 00:35:45,359 let's turn to the science and the 847 00:35:51,349 --> 00:35:47,839 engineering aspects of apollo 848 00:35:54,150 --> 00:35:51,359 was it worth it for the for the science 849 00:35:56,150 --> 00:35:54,160 absolutely i would agree that i mean it 850 00:35:57,910 --> 00:35:56,160 was not a scientific program in its 851 00:35:59,829 --> 00:35:57,920 origins it was not done for science it 852 00:36:00,630 --> 00:35:59,839 was done to beat the soviets 853 00:36:02,950 --> 00:36:00,640 but 854 00:36:04,630 --> 00:36:02,960 after we had mastered the ability to 855 00:36:06,230 --> 00:36:04,640 land on the moon we kept going back at 856 00:36:08,550 --> 00:36:06,240 least long enough until the money ran 857 00:36:10,470 --> 00:36:08,560 out that a massive amount of lunar 858 00:36:14,950 --> 00:36:10,480 science was done in the process of 859 00:36:18,069 --> 00:36:16,390 yeah i mean 860 00:36:19,829 --> 00:36:18,079 the the key 861 00:36:21,589 --> 00:36:19,839 there's actually lunar scientists have 862 00:36:23,109 --> 00:36:21,599 come up with a top ten list of things 863 00:36:24,310 --> 00:36:23,119 that we learned from going to the moon 864 00:36:25,910 --> 00:36:24,320 and they're pretty spectacular but 865 00:36:29,990 --> 00:36:25,920 number one on that list 866 00:36:31,829 --> 00:36:30,000 is a fairly definitive statement of the 867 00:36:33,589 --> 00:36:31,839 origins of the moon 868 00:36:35,510 --> 00:36:33,599 and and it's strikingly different from 869 00:36:37,990 --> 00:36:35,520 any of the theories that had been 870 00:36:40,630 --> 00:36:38,000 promulgated before we went to the moon 871 00:36:43,510 --> 00:36:40,640 uh where now uh most scientists are of 872 00:36:47,750 --> 00:36:43,520 the belief that in the primordial solar 873 00:36:49,510 --> 00:36:47,760 system there was a uh a a body out there 874 00:36:52,150 --> 00:36:49,520 probably the size of mars or so that 875 00:36:53,910 --> 00:36:52,160 impacted the earth and and uh pieces of 876 00:36:56,950 --> 00:36:53,920 both the earth and the moon and other 877 00:36:58,630 --> 00:36:56,960 things around all coalesced to form this 878 00:37:01,430 --> 00:36:58,640 and um 879 00:37:05,910 --> 00:37:01,440 and as a result of that uh 880 00:37:08,069 --> 00:37:05,920 we learned a lot about the science of of 881 00:37:09,670 --> 00:37:08,079 of the moon and its evolution since its 882 00:37:11,190 --> 00:37:09,680 creation but isn't it a fair statement 883 00:37:12,470 --> 00:37:11,200 to say that scientists at the time 884 00:37:14,470 --> 00:37:12,480 thought they were taking a back seat to 885 00:37:17,030 --> 00:37:14,480 the engineers engineering or political 886 00:37:19,510 --> 00:37:17,040 aspects and oh by the way they were 887 00:37:21,270 --> 00:37:19,520 uh i mean i mean science wrote piggyback 888 00:37:24,069 --> 00:37:21,280 on the engineering program to go to the 889 00:37:27,030 --> 00:37:24,079 moon they did so very effectively 890 00:37:29,109 --> 00:37:27,040 but that was not the purpose of going uh 891 00:37:31,270 --> 00:37:29,119 that was at best something that they 892 00:37:34,470 --> 00:37:31,280 thought about down the road and those 893 00:37:37,030 --> 00:37:34,480 last few missions as as mike said 894 00:37:39,109 --> 00:37:37,040 were really enormously uh significant as 895 00:37:39,750 --> 00:37:39,119 treasure troves of scientific knowledge 896 00:37:42,470 --> 00:37:39,760 and 897 00:37:44,870 --> 00:37:42,480 there were several more missions planned 898 00:37:47,109 --> 00:37:44,880 uh which would have been even more 899 00:37:49,990 --> 00:37:47,119 productive scientifically i mean one of 900 00:37:52,390 --> 00:37:50,000 the points to make now in 2009 is 901 00:37:54,870 --> 00:37:52,400 there's lots of science left to do we 902 00:37:56,310 --> 00:37:54,880 didn't finish with the moon 903 00:37:58,230 --> 00:37:56,320 yeah people also forget that there were 904 00:38:00,790 --> 00:37:58,240 5 000 pounds i think of scientific 905 00:38:02,470 --> 00:38:00,800 equipment left on the moon during the uh 906 00:38:05,109 --> 00:38:02,480 during the apollo program including some 907 00:38:06,630 --> 00:38:05,119 really good cameras right 908 00:38:09,430 --> 00:38:06,640 but i think you know just the very fact 909 00:38:11,270 --> 00:38:09,440 that before apollo the interplanetary 910 00:38:13,190 --> 00:38:11,280 travel was science fiction and now it's 911 00:38:14,950 --> 00:38:13,200 a reality now we know how to use 912 00:38:16,870 --> 00:38:14,960 enormous explosions as a method of 913 00:38:18,870 --> 00:38:16,880 transportation i think it's fantastic 914 00:38:20,950 --> 00:38:18,880 it's worth it just for that right 915 00:38:23,430 --> 00:38:20,960 okay we could go on and on about apollo 916 00:38:25,670 --> 00:38:23,440 11 but let's let's move forward here 917 00:38:29,030 --> 00:38:25,680 apollo of course had six more lunar 918 00:38:32,230 --> 00:38:29,040 missions uh after apollo 11. the apollo 919 00:38:33,829 --> 00:38:32,240 12 landed near surveyor spacecraft and 920 00:38:36,310 --> 00:38:33,839 that mission was a great success but 921 00:38:37,829 --> 00:38:36,320 then there came apollo 13. let's take a 922 00:38:40,310 --> 00:38:37,839 look 923 00:38:42,870 --> 00:38:40,320 he's got it made come on in there 924 00:38:55,510 --> 00:38:42,880 24 feet contact light 925 00:38:59,109 --> 00:38:57,109 dan we've got one more item for you when 926 00:39:01,030 --> 00:38:59,119 you get a chance we'd like it to 927 00:39:03,510 --> 00:39:01,040 stir up your cryo tanks 928 00:39:03,520 --> 00:39:09,990 stand by 929 00:39:10,000 --> 00:39:17,109 hey yeah 930 00:39:21,589 --> 00:39:19,510 and the fact that apollo 12 landed 931 00:39:23,030 --> 00:39:21,599 within a few hundred feet of the 932 00:39:25,190 --> 00:39:23,040 surveyor there and actually brought back 933 00:39:28,390 --> 00:39:25,200 pieces of of surveyor let's talk a 934 00:39:29,829 --> 00:39:28,400 little bit about apollo 13. uh what's 935 00:39:31,670 --> 00:39:29,839 the most important lesson we learned 936 00:39:33,589 --> 00:39:31,680 from apollo 13 how close did we come to 937 00:39:35,750 --> 00:39:33,599 disaster with 13 938 00:39:37,750 --> 00:39:35,760 inches away but you know the lesson of 939 00:39:39,750 --> 00:39:37,760 13 you see almost every mission that 940 00:39:40,790 --> 00:39:39,760 flew in apollo they are constantly 941 00:39:42,390 --> 00:39:40,800 having 942 00:39:44,470 --> 00:39:42,400 death death-defying moments on these 943 00:39:47,270 --> 00:39:44,480 missions such as using the pen cap to 944 00:39:48,390 --> 00:39:47,280 arm the return rocket on 11 945 00:39:50,470 --> 00:39:48,400 that the 946 00:39:51,670 --> 00:39:50,480 astronauts are so well trained by nasa 947 00:39:53,670 --> 00:39:51,680 that they figure out a way around and 948 00:39:56,550 --> 00:39:53,680 figure out how to fix it and 13 is the 949 00:39:58,630 --> 00:39:56,560 most severe form of that well i think 950 00:40:02,069 --> 00:39:58,640 one of the things we forget is just how 951 00:40:03,750 --> 00:40:02,079 risky this was uh i think was roger or 952 00:40:07,430 --> 00:40:03,760 mike earlier said we've become 953 00:40:11,430 --> 00:40:09,510 maybe because we we've had the shuttle 954 00:40:12,870 --> 00:40:11,440 accidents uh 955 00:40:15,510 --> 00:40:12,880 but but 956 00:40:18,470 --> 00:40:15,520 every apollo mission was right at the 957 00:40:21,270 --> 00:40:18,480 edge of performance and and there were 958 00:40:23,109 --> 00:40:21,280 people including bob gilruth who were 959 00:40:26,309 --> 00:40:23,119 perfect would have been perfectly happy 960 00:40:28,470 --> 00:40:26,319 to quit after 11. saying we we met our 961 00:40:30,790 --> 00:40:28,480 goal beat the russians to the moon this 962 00:40:32,309 --> 00:40:30,800 is too risky to keep doing 963 00:40:35,190 --> 00:40:32,319 well let's talk about that for a minute 964 00:40:37,109 --> 00:40:35,200 have we become today too risk-averse 965 00:40:38,870 --> 00:40:37,119 with the shuttle program or with the the 966 00:40:40,309 --> 00:40:38,880 more modern programs 967 00:40:41,990 --> 00:40:40,319 you know risk is a relative thing what 968 00:40:42,870 --> 00:40:42,000 do we what are we willing to accept you 969 00:40:45,349 --> 00:40:42,880 can't 970 00:40:46,870 --> 00:40:45,359 uh get out of bed uh without accepting a 971 00:40:48,550 --> 00:40:46,880 measure of risk and we all calculate 972 00:40:49,990 --> 00:40:48,560 that all the time in our own lives in 973 00:40:52,630 --> 00:40:50,000 fact i don't think you can stay in bed 974 00:40:54,230 --> 00:40:52,640 without a measure of risk you know maybe 975 00:40:56,550 --> 00:40:54,240 the ceiling falls on you or something 976 00:40:58,230 --> 00:40:56,560 but um 977 00:41:00,710 --> 00:40:58,240 you know what is an acceptable level 978 00:41:02,550 --> 00:41:00,720 obviously flying in space uh 979 00:41:05,510 --> 00:41:02,560 takes a an acceptance of a certain 980 00:41:08,230 --> 00:41:05,520 measure of risk and and it is out on the 981 00:41:11,670 --> 00:41:08,240 margin somewhat can you calculate that 982 00:41:14,390 --> 00:41:11,680 and effectively try to bring down that 983 00:41:16,309 --> 00:41:14,400 uh that that riskiness yes you can and 984 00:41:18,710 --> 00:41:16,319 and we do that all the time 985 00:41:20,710 --> 00:41:18,720 one of the things that i think happens 986 00:41:21,510 --> 00:41:20,720 when we start talking about 987 00:41:23,349 --> 00:41:21,520 uh 988 00:41:25,270 --> 00:41:23,359 shuttle accidents for instance and let's 989 00:41:30,470 --> 00:41:25,280 not forget that we lost the crew of 990 00:41:35,190 --> 00:41:32,790 that it happened so rarely and the 991 00:41:35,990 --> 00:41:35,200 events themselves are so 992 00:41:37,109 --> 00:41:36,000 uh 993 00:41:39,349 --> 00:41:37,119 publicly 994 00:41:43,030 --> 00:41:39,359 uh seen i mean you know every launch is 995 00:41:46,230 --> 00:41:43,040 on on television and so on and so forth 996 00:41:48,870 --> 00:41:46,240 that when you have this sort of accident 997 00:41:51,510 --> 00:41:48,880 there's a very public sense about it and 998 00:41:54,069 --> 00:41:51,520 there's an expectation that we will not 999 00:41:57,349 --> 00:41:54,079 fail and nasa has demonstrated over and 1000 00:41:59,510 --> 00:41:57,359 over again its ability to uh to overcome 1001 00:42:02,069 --> 00:41:59,520 those odds and not to fail and to be 1002 00:42:04,630 --> 00:42:02,079 successful and we we take it as a given 1003 00:42:07,270 --> 00:42:04,640 that they will be successful so when the 1004 00:42:10,390 --> 00:42:07,280 risk factors come out of line when we do 1005 00:42:12,230 --> 00:42:10,400 lose a crew uh it's all the more 1006 00:42:14,950 --> 00:42:12,240 disturbing i think 1007 00:42:16,870 --> 00:42:14,960 chris you're involved in the current uh 1008 00:42:19,109 --> 00:42:16,880 operations or the future exploration 1009 00:42:20,230 --> 00:42:19,119 program these are very real life and 1010 00:42:22,390 --> 00:42:20,240 death questions to you what are your 1011 00:42:25,910 --> 00:42:22,400 thoughts well i agree with roger i think 1012 00:42:27,990 --> 00:42:25,920 i think nasa has a very strong risk 1013 00:42:29,510 --> 00:42:28,000 management system so so we are concerned 1014 00:42:31,589 --> 00:42:29,520 about risk and we need to understand the 1015 00:42:33,030 --> 00:42:31,599 risks that we are taking but i agree 1016 00:42:35,030 --> 00:42:33,040 uh 1017 00:42:36,870 --> 00:42:35,040 we're trying to educate the public 1018 00:42:39,190 --> 00:42:36,880 especially during a development program 1019 00:42:41,750 --> 00:42:39,200 that there will be failures and we learn 1020 00:42:43,510 --> 00:42:41,760 from those failures so we do everything 1021 00:42:45,190 --> 00:42:43,520 that we can possible to make sure that 1022 00:42:47,510 --> 00:42:45,200 we don't have those failures but but but 1023 00:42:50,309 --> 00:42:47,520 they are going to be 1024 00:42:51,990 --> 00:42:50,319 failures i mean there will be um now 1025 00:42:53,349 --> 00:42:52,000 when it comes to crew obviously we have 1026 00:42:55,510 --> 00:42:53,359 to take that extra step to make sure 1027 00:42:56,950 --> 00:42:55,520 that the crew is protected but but 1028 00:42:58,390 --> 00:42:56,960 during a development program there will 1029 00:42:59,910 --> 00:42:58,400 be failures and and 1030 00:43:02,630 --> 00:42:59,920 that's a good thing because we do learn 1031 00:43:04,390 --> 00:43:02,640 from it well 1032 00:43:06,150 --> 00:43:04,400 almost the flip side of this the risks 1033 00:43:08,630 --> 00:43:06,160 have to be worth taking because the 1034 00:43:11,750 --> 00:43:08,640 risks are never going to be zero i mean 1035 00:43:14,150 --> 00:43:11,760 what made apollo great was we risked we 1036 00:43:15,589 --> 00:43:14,160 took pretty significant risk to do 1037 00:43:17,430 --> 00:43:15,599 something grand 1038 00:43:19,910 --> 00:43:17,440 and i think the program that chris is 1039 00:43:21,670 --> 00:43:19,920 involved in uh 1040 00:43:24,150 --> 00:43:21,680 once again preparing to send people 1041 00:43:27,750 --> 00:43:24,160 beyond earth orbit is something worth 1042 00:43:30,470 --> 00:43:27,760 taking risks to do uh so there is a 1043 00:43:32,870 --> 00:43:30,480 benefit risk calculation uh 1044 00:43:34,870 --> 00:43:32,880 and and and the benefits have to be 1045 00:43:36,710 --> 00:43:34,880 great to accept the risks that are 1046 00:43:38,790 --> 00:43:36,720 involved in space flight 1047 00:43:40,630 --> 00:43:38,800 there seems to be a difference among the 1048 00:43:42,069 --> 00:43:40,640 between the public perception and and 1049 00:43:43,910 --> 00:43:42,079 the astronauts perception i think the 1050 00:43:45,750 --> 00:43:43,920 astronauts all know that there's this 1051 00:43:47,510 --> 00:43:45,760 risk the public often doesn't seem 1052 00:43:48,790 --> 00:43:47,520 willing to accept that risk and i think 1053 00:43:50,550 --> 00:43:48,800 you know a few years ago we had a 1054 00:43:52,550 --> 00:43:50,560 symposium on risk and exploration where 1055 00:43:54,309 --> 00:43:52,560 the question was how much risk do you 1056 00:43:56,470 --> 00:43:54,319 take in the name of forward-looking 1057 00:43:59,030 --> 00:43:56,480 exploration and one of the outcomes of 1058 00:44:01,030 --> 00:43:59,040 that was that you 1059 00:44:03,190 --> 00:44:01,040 just have to let the public know and 1060 00:44:04,950 --> 00:44:03,200 realize that uh risk is part of 1061 00:44:06,470 --> 00:44:04,960 exploration and and there are going to 1062 00:44:08,150 --> 00:44:06,480 be these kinds of 1063 00:44:09,990 --> 00:44:08,160 things that happen one of the apollo 1064 00:44:12,069 --> 00:44:10,000 wives said a remarkable thing she said 1065 00:44:13,589 --> 00:44:12,079 that you know they take a lot more care 1066 00:44:16,069 --> 00:44:13,599 with these spacecraft than they do with 1067 00:44:17,430 --> 00:44:16,079 the military test craft that these guys 1068 00:44:19,270 --> 00:44:17,440 were flying before they became 1069 00:44:21,670 --> 00:44:19,280 astronauts and she also mentioned that 1070 00:44:23,349 --> 00:44:21,680 if the people during the 60s if the 1071 00:44:24,630 --> 00:44:23,359 astronauts during the 60s hadn't been 1072 00:44:27,270 --> 00:44:24,640 astronauts they would have been flying 1073 00:44:29,270 --> 00:44:27,280 in vietnam so it's a wholly different 1074 00:44:30,710 --> 00:44:29,280 origin of risk that they come to from 1075 00:44:32,950 --> 00:44:30,720 where we started 1076 00:44:34,390 --> 00:44:32,960 the test pilots brings to mind tom wolf 1077 00:44:36,550 --> 00:44:34,400 and the right stuff you read those 1078 00:44:38,309 --> 00:44:36,560 stories in there right but but also when 1079 00:44:40,309 --> 00:44:38,319 you really look into that you come into 1080 00:44:42,150 --> 00:44:40,319 this thinking astronauts are these wild 1081 00:44:43,829 --> 00:44:42,160 daredevil cowboy types when in fact 1082 00:44:46,230 --> 00:44:43,839 they're cool characters and the 1083 00:44:47,990 --> 00:44:46,240 daredevil cowboy types were the nasa 1084 00:44:50,150 --> 00:44:48,000 administrators pushing the envelope in 1085 00:44:52,390 --> 00:44:50,160 the space 1086 00:44:54,790 --> 00:44:52,400 okay so let's talk about the the ending 1087 00:44:56,790 --> 00:44:54,800 of apollo there were four more landing 1088 00:44:58,950 --> 00:44:56,800 missions there was apollo 14 1089 00:45:00,950 --> 00:44:58,960 then there were apollos 15 to 17 which 1090 00:45:18,630 --> 00:45:00,960 had the lunar rovers let's take a look 1091 00:45:18,640 --> 00:45:34,390 we're on the surface 1092 00:45:34,400 --> 00:45:57,829 miles and miles 1093 00:46:21,270 --> 00:45:59,829 i'm glad they got this great suspension 1094 00:46:25,430 --> 00:46:23,270 hey john this is perfect with the limb 1095 00:46:26,950 --> 00:46:25,440 and the rover and you and 1096 00:46:28,870 --> 00:46:26,960 stone mountain 1097 00:47:23,270 --> 00:46:28,880 and the old flag 1098 00:47:28,549 --> 00:47:25,430 mankind complete its first 1099 00:47:29,430 --> 00:47:28,559 evolutionary steps into the universe 1100 00:47:31,270 --> 00:47:29,440 three 1101 00:47:32,549 --> 00:47:31,280 two one 1102 00:47:37,670 --> 00:47:32,559 edition 1103 00:47:40,870 --> 00:47:39,670 just amazing images those rovers really 1104 00:47:42,630 --> 00:47:40,880 look like fun and they look like they 1105 00:47:46,309 --> 00:47:42,640 were exceeding the speed limit there 1106 00:47:47,829 --> 00:47:46,319 uh well we all know that uh even as the 1107 00:47:49,829 --> 00:47:47,839 first moon landings were taking place 1108 00:47:51,510 --> 00:47:49,839 that the budgets were being cut we know 1109 00:47:52,950 --> 00:47:51,520 that the last three saturn fives that 1110 00:47:57,030 --> 00:47:52,960 were destined for the moon are now in 1111 00:47:59,190 --> 00:47:57,040 museums and in florida and um in alabama 1112 00:48:01,670 --> 00:47:59,200 and in houston where they are very 1113 00:48:04,390 --> 00:48:01,680 nicely displayed but the apollo program 1114 00:48:06,390 --> 00:48:04,400 did come to a rather abrupt end 1115 00:48:07,430 --> 00:48:06,400 let's talk about what the reasons were 1116 00:48:09,510 --> 00:48:07,440 for that 1117 00:48:10,950 --> 00:48:09,520 and uh why well let's let's talk about 1118 00:48:14,230 --> 00:48:10,960 that first what were the reasons for the 1119 00:48:16,230 --> 00:48:14,240 abrupt ending of the apollo program 1120 00:48:17,990 --> 00:48:16,240 lack of public support fundamentally i 1121 00:48:20,630 --> 00:48:18,000 mean there's just no way gotta get 1122 00:48:22,790 --> 00:48:20,640 around the fact that that most americans 1123 00:48:23,589 --> 00:48:22,800 felt after apollo 11 well we've done 1124 00:48:27,030 --> 00:48:23,599 that 1125 00:48:27,990 --> 00:48:27,040 how many more times do we need to do it 1126 00:48:30,230 --> 00:48:28,000 and 1127 00:48:33,109 --> 00:48:30,240 the public support had already eroded 1128 00:48:35,750 --> 00:48:33,119 ever since the mid 60s and the missions 1129 00:48:36,549 --> 00:48:35,760 from apollo 8 to 11 essentially provided 1130 00:48:46,829 --> 00:48:36,559 a 1131 00:48:49,510 --> 00:48:46,839 riots 1132 00:48:51,510 --> 00:48:49,520 uh many other things that just seemed of 1133 00:48:53,990 --> 00:48:51,520 a higher priority than continuing to 1134 00:48:55,510 --> 00:48:54,000 spend on apollo 1135 00:48:57,589 --> 00:48:55,520 well there were there were 1136 00:48:59,349 --> 00:48:57,599 a variety of reasons and the nixon 1137 00:49:01,750 --> 00:48:59,359 administration 1138 00:49:04,710 --> 00:49:01,760 wanted to cut the federal budget overall 1139 00:49:06,309 --> 00:49:04,720 and nasa was a prime target for doing 1140 00:49:08,630 --> 00:49:06,319 that 1141 00:49:11,430 --> 00:49:08,640 there were serious 1142 00:49:12,870 --> 00:49:11,440 proposals to cut the last two kept 16 1143 00:49:15,430 --> 00:49:12,880 and 17 1144 00:49:17,430 --> 00:49:15,440 in the summer of 71 cap weinberger who 1145 00:49:20,870 --> 00:49:17,440 was at that point was deputy 1146 00:49:21,829 --> 00:49:20,880 head of of omb i wrote a memo to nixon 1147 00:49:23,910 --> 00:49:21,839 saying 1148 00:49:26,069 --> 00:49:23,920 this would confirm that we're giving up 1149 00:49:27,910 --> 00:49:26,079 our world leadership position that we 1150 00:49:30,549 --> 00:49:27,920 can do something better than welfare 1151 00:49:32,549 --> 00:49:30,559 programs uh 1152 00:49:35,829 --> 00:49:32,559 but but there was a great financial 1153 00:49:38,549 --> 00:49:35,839 pressure and nasa as an institution 1154 00:49:40,150 --> 00:49:38,559 wanted to get on to do something new 1155 00:49:42,470 --> 00:49:40,160 nasa after all is an engineering 1156 00:49:44,790 --> 00:49:42,480 development organization 1157 00:49:46,470 --> 00:49:44,800 flying repetitive missions is not what 1158 00:49:48,790 --> 00:49:46,480 nasa thought it was supposed to be doing 1159 00:49:50,549 --> 00:49:48,800 so they were ready to uh 1160 00:49:52,230 --> 00:49:50,559 houston and huntsville in particular 1161 00:49:54,630 --> 00:49:52,240 were ready to move on to the next 1162 00:49:56,950 --> 00:49:54,640 program uh which they thought at that 1163 00:49:59,270 --> 00:49:56,960 point would be using saturn fives to 1164 00:50:01,910 --> 00:49:59,280 launch space stations so there wasn't a 1165 00:50:04,549 --> 00:50:01,920 lot of support even inside the uh 1166 00:50:06,790 --> 00:50:04,559 agency for repetitive missions to the 1167 00:50:08,630 --> 00:50:06,800 moon but in retrospect 1168 00:50:10,870 --> 00:50:08,640 was it a mistake for the united states 1169 00:50:13,670 --> 00:50:10,880 to throw away this infrastructure the 1170 00:50:15,670 --> 00:50:13,680 saturn 5 and command module this this 1171 00:50:17,750 --> 00:50:15,680 entire infrastructure i think john 1172 00:50:19,589 --> 00:50:17,760 you've said that nasa at 50 is still 1173 00:50:21,510 --> 00:50:19,599 suffering from decisions made at nasa at 1174 00:50:23,670 --> 00:50:21,520 12. what about that 1175 00:50:26,630 --> 00:50:23,680 well i think it was uh 1176 00:50:30,069 --> 00:50:26,640 a tragedy to throw away the saturn v i 1177 00:50:32,630 --> 00:50:30,079 mean the the key to future exploration 1178 00:50:33,910 --> 00:50:32,640 is a heavy lift vehicle 1179 00:50:35,990 --> 00:50:33,920 we had one 1180 00:50:36,870 --> 00:50:36,000 we had a really good one 1181 00:50:40,150 --> 00:50:36,880 and 1182 00:50:43,589 --> 00:50:40,160 we let it go away i mean we wouldn't i 1183 00:50:45,990 --> 00:50:43,599 mean command modules and lunar modules 1184 00:50:48,950 --> 00:50:46,000 less less thing it's it's really giving 1185 00:50:50,710 --> 00:50:48,960 up saturn 5 1186 00:50:53,750 --> 00:50:50,720 think of what the space station would 1187 00:50:56,309 --> 00:50:53,760 look like if we could launch it on a 33 1188 00:50:58,230 --> 00:50:56,319 foot diameter launch vehicle with heavy 1189 00:51:00,710 --> 00:50:58,240 lift capability we would have had a 1190 00:51:03,349 --> 00:51:00,720 space station much more quickly and and 1191 00:51:06,710 --> 00:51:03,359 a more capable space station so that was 1192 00:51:12,390 --> 00:51:06,720 i think a a failure of national 1193 00:51:18,470 --> 00:51:16,069 i i think you also have to to 1194 00:51:19,990 --> 00:51:18,480 ask the question um 1195 00:51:23,270 --> 00:51:20,000 i mean we weren't going to fly saturn 1196 00:51:25,270 --> 00:51:23,280 fives for very much longer anyway 1197 00:51:26,950 --> 00:51:25,280 and 1198 00:51:28,870 --> 00:51:26,960 it's technology that was becoming 1199 00:51:30,470 --> 00:51:28,880 outmoded even at the time that it was 1200 00:51:31,829 --> 00:51:30,480 being flown 1201 00:51:33,750 --> 00:51:31,839 and uh 1202 00:51:35,270 --> 00:51:33,760 i've i've had people oh yeah i know 1203 00:51:37,750 --> 00:51:35,280 you've heard these stories about oh 1204 00:51:39,430 --> 00:51:37,760 nasa's lost the blueprint they usually 1205 00:51:41,030 --> 00:51:39,440 uh cast it as they've lost the 1206 00:51:43,270 --> 00:51:41,040 blueprints for the saturn v and they 1207 00:51:45,349 --> 00:51:43,280 couldn't go couldn't go find those and 1208 00:51:47,510 --> 00:51:45,359 build more saturn fives well the answer 1209 00:51:49,190 --> 00:51:47,520 to that is well actually they do exist 1210 00:51:50,470 --> 00:51:49,200 and they're in a big warehouse in the 1211 00:51:51,750 --> 00:51:50,480 national archives 1212 00:51:53,030 --> 00:51:51,760 but more important than that why would 1213 00:51:55,030 --> 00:51:53,040 you want to buy why would you want to 1214 00:51:57,270 --> 00:51:55,040 build a saturn v it's it's a piece of 1215 00:51:59,430 --> 00:51:57,280 technology that is that was outmoded 1216 00:52:00,950 --> 00:51:59,440 even at the point it was 1217 00:52:03,109 --> 00:52:00,960 being used 1218 00:52:05,190 --> 00:52:03,119 and uh and it should have been and we 1219 00:52:07,270 --> 00:52:05,200 should move on from there 1220 00:52:09,589 --> 00:52:07,280 shuttle was really designed 1221 00:52:12,950 --> 00:52:09,599 as a as a piece of a critical 1222 00:52:14,630 --> 00:52:12,960 infrastructure to move forward and uh 1223 00:52:17,270 --> 00:52:14,640 with shuttle and a station and then 1224 00:52:19,190 --> 00:52:17,280 potential to go on from uh the station 1225 00:52:21,109 --> 00:52:19,200 as a jumping off point that made a lot 1226 00:52:23,190 --> 00:52:21,119 of sense even for the people at the time 1227 00:52:25,510 --> 00:52:23,200 to pursue 1228 00:52:27,349 --> 00:52:25,520 so how about now nasa is ramping down 1229 00:52:29,109 --> 00:52:27,359 the shuttle and ramping up the new 1230 00:52:31,510 --> 00:52:29,119 system is it a mistake to get rid of 1231 00:52:33,670 --> 00:52:31,520 that technology 1232 00:52:35,430 --> 00:52:33,680 you know i mean people people of good 1233 00:52:36,710 --> 00:52:35,440 will can come down on both sides of that 1234 00:52:39,349 --> 00:52:36,720 argument 1235 00:52:41,510 --> 00:52:39,359 and and there are cases to be made on on 1236 00:52:43,510 --> 00:52:41,520 all sides of that uh 1237 00:52:45,430 --> 00:52:43,520 you know the uh the charitable thing 1238 00:52:47,510 --> 00:52:45,440 would be to say that the the shuttle was 1239 00:52:50,549 --> 00:52:47,520 a remarkable experimental vehicle and it 1240 00:52:52,309 --> 00:52:50,559 was and it has served the needs of it 1241 00:52:54,630 --> 00:52:52,319 that's true it it still is it's not 1242 00:52:56,230 --> 00:52:54,640 retired yet uh next 1243 00:52:58,790 --> 00:52:56,240 next year experimental it's still 1244 00:53:00,950 --> 00:52:58,800 experimental and um 1245 00:53:02,390 --> 00:53:00,960 uh and when it retires we should give it 1246 00:53:04,549 --> 00:53:02,400 an honorable retirement because it 1247 00:53:07,270 --> 00:53:04,559 deserves that after serving very very 1248 00:53:09,430 --> 00:53:07,280 well for a long period of time and to 1249 00:53:12,150 --> 00:53:09,440 move on to the next generation vehicle 1250 00:53:14,390 --> 00:53:12,160 uh should that vehicle look like a 1251 00:53:16,309 --> 00:53:14,400 shuttle or should it be something else 1252 00:53:18,150 --> 00:53:16,319 the architecture for constellation sends 1253 00:53:20,309 --> 00:53:18,160 us in a different direction 1254 00:53:22,390 --> 00:53:20,319 and there is there are pros and cons and 1255 00:53:23,990 --> 00:53:22,400 trade-offs on both 1256 00:53:25,190 --> 00:53:24,000 that's a good segue into our next 1257 00:53:27,349 --> 00:53:25,200 segment here 1258 00:53:30,309 --> 00:53:27,359 apollo has the many legacies but one of 1259 00:53:31,829 --> 00:53:30,319 them is its technological legacy 1260 00:53:32,870 --> 00:53:31,839 part of that technology will be used to 1261 00:53:34,309 --> 00:53:32,880 go back to the moon as part of the 1262 00:53:43,589 --> 00:53:34,319 constellation program let's look at a 1263 00:53:43,599 --> 00:55:25,190 so 1264 00:55:27,750 --> 00:55:26,470 chris you're the deputy director of 1265 00:55:29,510 --> 00:55:27,760 constellation systems some of that 1266 00:55:32,069 --> 00:55:29,520 hardware looked pretty familiar tell us 1267 00:55:34,950 --> 00:55:32,079 it does as you can see we're actually 1268 00:55:37,030 --> 00:55:34,960 using heritage from from shuttle as well 1269 00:55:38,630 --> 00:55:37,040 as apollo you saw some of the clips 1270 00:55:41,510 --> 00:55:38,640 there we're using the solid rocket 1271 00:55:43,829 --> 00:55:41,520 motors for the aries one first stage as 1272 00:55:45,589 --> 00:55:43,839 well as the first stage for the ares 5 1273 00:55:47,109 --> 00:55:45,599 launch vehicle so there's a lot of 1274 00:55:48,069 --> 00:55:47,119 commonality between the two launch 1275 00:55:49,589 --> 00:55:48,079 vehicles that we're using for 1276 00:55:52,150 --> 00:55:49,599 constellation 1277 00:55:53,829 --> 00:55:52,160 uh in addition it wasn't shown there but 1278 00:55:55,910 --> 00:55:53,839 apollo heritage 1279 00:55:57,430 --> 00:55:55,920 uh something very very obvious from a 1280 00:55:59,270 --> 00:55:57,440 physical perspective is we're using the 1281 00:56:00,789 --> 00:55:59,280 same capsule shape 1282 00:56:01,750 --> 00:56:00,799 as apollo 1283 00:56:03,990 --> 00:56:01,760 the only thing is is on the 1284 00:56:05,910 --> 00:56:04,000 constellation side it's actually just 1285 00:56:08,630 --> 00:56:05,920 over 16 feet in diameter and it's going 1286 00:56:11,750 --> 00:56:08,640 to carry four crew to lunar lunar orbit 1287 00:56:14,470 --> 00:56:11,760 where apollo was i believe just under 13 1288 00:56:16,069 --> 00:56:14,480 and and carries carried three so we're 1289 00:56:17,910 --> 00:56:16,079 actually increasing the capability of 1290 00:56:19,109 --> 00:56:17,920 apollo but using the same kind of 1291 00:56:20,069 --> 00:56:19,119 concepts 1292 00:56:22,230 --> 00:56:20,079 um 1293 00:56:25,910 --> 00:56:22,240 you mentioned that the saturn v 1294 00:56:27,670 --> 00:56:25,920 um 33 feet in diameter our current ares 1295 00:56:30,390 --> 00:56:27,680 5 1296 00:56:32,870 --> 00:56:30,400 launch vehicle concept is using a 33 1297 00:56:34,230 --> 00:56:32,880 foot diameter core stage as well so we 1298 00:56:37,430 --> 00:56:34,240 are going to be able to use some of the 1299 00:56:40,390 --> 00:56:37,440 same facilities potential uh processing 1300 00:56:41,670 --> 00:56:40,400 techniques and and tools so again we're 1301 00:56:43,990 --> 00:56:41,680 taking the lessons learned from the 1302 00:56:46,630 --> 00:56:44,000 apollo era and employing them in the 1303 00:56:50,549 --> 00:56:46,640 constellation program 1304 00:56:53,030 --> 00:56:50,559 j2x is the upper stage engine for aries 1305 00:56:55,190 --> 00:56:53,040 one as well as the earth departure stage 1306 00:56:56,870 --> 00:56:55,200 for ares five once again commonality 1307 00:56:58,549 --> 00:56:56,880 between the two launch vehicles what 1308 00:57:00,470 --> 00:56:58,559 we're trying to do is lower our life 1309 00:57:02,230 --> 00:57:00,480 cycle cost development across the two 1310 00:57:03,750 --> 00:57:02,240 launch vehicles by using a lot of common 1311 00:57:04,789 --> 00:57:03,760 elements 1312 00:57:07,750 --> 00:57:04,799 that 1313 00:57:09,349 --> 00:57:07,760 brings uh or is um heritage hardware 1314 00:57:12,870 --> 00:57:09,359 it's based on heritage hardware from the 1315 00:57:14,630 --> 00:57:12,880 apollo the j2 engine which was saturn 5 1316 00:57:16,789 --> 00:57:14,640 and s1b 1317 00:57:18,789 --> 00:57:16,799 keep me straight historians here uh 1318 00:57:20,470 --> 00:57:18,799 we're using the same components and and 1319 00:57:23,030 --> 00:57:20,480 philosophy of 1320 00:57:25,270 --> 00:57:23,040 the j2 and the j2s which was a 1321 00:57:26,789 --> 00:57:25,280 simplified version of j2 1322 00:57:28,309 --> 00:57:26,799 i wish we had more time to go into those 1323 00:57:29,190 --> 00:57:28,319 details but i do want to ask a final 1324 00:57:30,789 --> 00:57:29,200 question 1325 00:57:32,710 --> 00:57:30,799 uh which is 1326 00:57:34,309 --> 00:57:32,720 about the legacy of apollo we see there 1327 00:57:36,069 --> 00:57:34,319 that some of the technological legacy 1328 00:57:37,910 --> 00:57:36,079 how about the legacy of apollo in 1329 00:57:39,190 --> 00:57:37,920 general how important was apollo and i'd 1330 00:57:41,510 --> 00:57:39,200 like each of you to address that 1331 00:57:44,309 --> 00:57:41,520 question let me start with craig well i 1332 00:57:46,470 --> 00:57:44,319 think apollo 1333 00:57:47,829 --> 00:57:46,480 was really a reaction to a profound fear 1334 00:57:50,069 --> 00:57:47,839 and this is part of the cold war we 1335 00:57:52,069 --> 00:57:50,079 forget when the soviets established 1336 00:57:54,870 --> 00:57:52,079 their early dominance in the space race 1337 00:57:56,549 --> 00:57:54,880 many americans up to lyndon johnson and 1338 00:57:57,829 --> 00:57:56,559 the halls of the senate believe that 1339 00:57:59,589 --> 00:57:57,839 they were going to turn it into a 1340 00:58:01,670 --> 00:57:59,599 battlefield and part of what going to 1341 00:58:03,829 --> 00:58:01,680 the moon did was prove that we could 1342 00:58:06,309 --> 00:58:03,839 defend ourselves in space if that indeed 1343 00:58:07,910 --> 00:58:06,319 turned into a cold war battlefield and i 1344 00:58:09,589 --> 00:58:07,920 think another thing that's not discussed 1345 00:58:12,150 --> 00:58:09,599 enough in this history is what a 1346 00:58:14,710 --> 00:58:12,160 profound economic stimulus this was for 1347 00:58:16,470 --> 00:58:14,720 the south it created 400 000 jobs it 1348 00:58:18,390 --> 00:58:16,480 brought technology across the whole of 1349 00:58:20,950 --> 00:58:18,400 the gulf coast and created sort of a 1350 00:58:22,470 --> 00:58:20,960 whole new uh life for many people not 1351 00:58:24,390 --> 00:58:22,480 just engineers and scientists but 1352 00:58:25,910 --> 00:58:24,400 seamstresses and plumbers so i look at 1353 00:58:28,230 --> 00:58:25,920 that too okay chris has already talked 1354 00:58:29,750 --> 00:58:28,240 about technological legacy michael well 1355 00:58:31,910 --> 00:58:29,760 certainly the scientific legacy as we 1356 00:58:34,069 --> 00:58:31,920 mentioned before of the lunar landings 1357 00:58:36,950 --> 00:58:34,079 was very very important and clearly it 1358 00:58:38,710 --> 00:58:36,960 remains an inspirational legacy uh for 1359 00:58:40,789 --> 00:58:38,720 that these anniversaries always show 1360 00:58:42,549 --> 00:58:40,799 that that people around the world and 1361 00:58:45,990 --> 00:58:42,559 not just in the united states are really 1362 00:58:46,870 --> 00:58:46,000 inspired by that accomplishment 1363 00:58:48,549 --> 00:58:46,880 roger 1364 00:58:50,710 --> 00:58:48,559 i think one of the things that uh that's 1365 00:58:52,390 --> 00:58:50,720 significant that uh nobody necessarily 1366 00:58:54,150 --> 00:58:52,400 anticipated at the time but has come 1367 00:58:56,390 --> 00:58:54,160 down to us is pretty significant since 1368 00:58:58,390 --> 00:58:56,400 then is is our new perspective that we 1369 00:59:02,150 --> 00:58:58,400 saw on earth as we looked back 1370 00:59:03,910 --> 00:59:02,160 and uh and the the the sense of 1371 00:59:06,789 --> 00:59:03,920 appreciation and wonder of this little 1372 00:59:08,710 --> 00:59:06,799 spaceship that we're riding on uh and 1373 00:59:10,309 --> 00:59:08,720 and how it houses all of the life and 1374 00:59:12,710 --> 00:59:10,319 all of the things we've ever loved and 1375 00:59:15,270 --> 00:59:12,720 hated uh uh 1376 00:59:18,710 --> 00:59:15,280 are right here and uh and that it is a 1377 00:59:21,109 --> 00:59:18,720 fragile thing that must be protected 1378 00:59:23,750 --> 00:59:21,119 well and the compliment to roger's 1379 00:59:25,349 --> 00:59:23,760 observation is apollo also showed us 1380 00:59:27,109 --> 00:59:25,359 that we don't have to stay on this 1381 00:59:29,510 --> 00:59:27,119 planet forever 1382 00:59:31,829 --> 00:59:29,520 it was the first step in a 1383 00:59:33,190 --> 00:59:31,839 centuries-long process of moving 1384 00:59:35,190 --> 00:59:33,200 humanity 1385 00:59:36,789 --> 00:59:35,200 into the solar system 1386 00:59:38,950 --> 00:59:36,799 hopefully we're going to continue to do 1387 00:59:40,069 --> 00:59:38,960 that in the next few years but but 1388 00:59:42,390 --> 00:59:40,079 apollo 1389 00:59:45,349 --> 00:59:42,400 when we look back will be the first step 1390 00:59:47,750 --> 00:59:45,359 in an evolution of humanity to a 1391 00:59:49,349 --> 00:59:47,760 multi-planet species 1392 00:59:51,030 --> 00:59:49,359 okay we're going to have to wrap it up 1393 00:59:54,470 --> 00:59:51,040 there thanks very much to the panel and 1394 00:59:56,789 --> 00:59:54,480 on this day when we have 13 astronauts 1395 00:59:58,390 --> 00:59:56,799 in earth orbit thank you all for joining 1396 00:59:59,510 --> 00:59:58,400 us here at nasa headquarters on this